RE: help find a cure and stamp it out in your lifetime!!!!!

[Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky <reyzl...>]

* combination of a khurve and a yenta.

khurve = a ruined building; a chaotic mess

I think you meant to write 'tramp' = kurve.


Reyzl 

----------
From:  Trudi Goodman [SMTP:goobietheg (at) hotmail(dot)com]
Sent:  Monday, April 30, 2001 11:59 AM
To:  World music from a Jewish slant
Subject:  YBD: help find a cure and stamp it out in your lifetime!!!!!

   Actually I was planning on being a flaming LimeGreen feminist!!!
Labels are useless. The bottom line is respectfulness. And at the risk of 
being redundantly redundant: some of the men on this list need to deprogram 
themselves from the more standard Jewish Male way of looking at any woman 
who wants what is rightfully hers, religiously and otherwise as being a 
combination of a khurve and a yenta. That, and that a religiously trained 
woman couldn't or wouldn't possibly want to change "tradition." Read here: 
Male domination in the Jewish Religious and Cultural spheres.
   As my grandfather Moe would say(he was Cantor)if HaShem had not intended 
women to be forthright then why would they be made so? He usually cited 
Deborah, Miriam and Ruth. And Moe would usually add that Men who couldn't or 
wouldn't see the inherent neccessity for women to be so, could not really be 
Jewish men. Because if it wasn't for Strong and Forthright Jewish women 
there would be no Jewish men.
   Being a great wit in English, Yiddish and Lithuanian, he referred to men 
like this as suffering from Yeshiva Bocher Disease. -Not bad for a Chasid, 
eh????

      Trudi the G


>From: "Lenka Lichtenberg" <lenkal (at) attcanada(dot)ca>
>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Subject: Re: A nice surprise?
>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:29:59 -0700
>
>Pardon my humble involvement in an area where I am more ignorant than most
>of you, but as a woman singer who attends traditional egalitarian services
>led by a female Rabbi and various congregants, I can relate to the issues
>here. I am sorry, but Robert Cohen's remarks insulted me on Shirona's
>behalf; I think he gets too personal as he attacks an opposing perspective.
>I think the usually friendly manner of this list serves us all better, even
>though these types of postings harvest more responses than the
>unconfrontational ones and get a healthy (?) discussion going. And to the
>point: Maybe all women who believe in female (equal) participation in
>religion ARE flaming red feminists - at least, in some people's eyes - and
>in that case, there are many of us. But labeling people this or that, will
>it ultimately bring us together, or drive us even further apart?
>
>Lenka Lichtenberg
>singer-songwriter and Yiddish performer
>www.lenkalichtenberg.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert Cohen <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 11:02 PM
>Subject: Re: A nice surprise?
>
>
> > >For me it was a spiritual and emotional experience - seeing "frum" 
>women
> > >taking an active and awe inspiring roll in the service, as equal to men
>and
> > >equal before G-d.  (I was watching the men during the portions where
>women
> > >were leading, and they  seemed very comfortable. The husbands whose 
>wives
> > >were leading looked very proud.   It was all very natural...
> >
> >
> > I have much respect and regard for Moshe Adler and am very interested to
> > hear that he's overseeing a traditional but egalitarian service.  I 
>would
> > automatically incline to assume that he's coming from a thoughtful and
> > serious place in doing so.
> >
> > Having said that:  Between the lines--or, actually, *in* the lines--of
>this
> > posting are flashing yellow lights indicating some of the potential
> > problems, perhaps, of such services.  *Why,* for example, was our
> > correspondent "watching the men during the portions where women were
> > leading"--or at any time, for that matter?  One of the reasons why many
> > women that I've talked to about this, or whose thoughts I've read about
>from
> > other's writing and interviewing, *like* a separate space from men is so
> > they *won't* be watched during davening--and I can't imagine that the 
>men
> > being watched here benefited from being watched--"spiritually and
> > emotionally," as our correspondent puts it.  Nor do I imagine that the
>women
> > at the service would have experienced a deeper kavannah in their 
>davening
>if
> > *they* were being watched.
> >
> > It's nice that the husbands of women leading the service "looked very
> > proud"--though, again, nobody should have been noticing--but that
>suggests,
> > again, *less* focus and intensity in prayer (or contemplation, study,
>etc.),
> > which is what a synagogue service should be about.  This service comes
>off,
> > at least in this account, as more of a show-and-tell entertainment
> > production--that's where one is appropriately "proud" of one's
> > spouse's/children's/friend's home run, aria, etc.  Parents, etc., can't
>help
> > but kvell over their children's bar/bat mitzvah--uncles too.  But that
> > should be the exception--and, indeed, in the synagogues, in my 
>experience,
> > where bar mitzvah is taken maximally seriously as a religious coming of
>age
> > and not a pageant-with-party, even parents' kvelling is expressed in a
>very
> > different way from at Little League.
> >
> >
> > >Later I spent a good half hour talking with the Rabbi,  Moshe
> > >Adler.  We should all be blessed with such Rabbis - open minded,
>spiritual,
> > >a man who is in touch with his own conscience - and has the guts to act
>on
> > >his beliefs.  Even in the face of a hostile "peer environment".
> >
> >
> > I have, as I said, nothing but regard for Moshe Adler.  But Shirona is,
> > sadly, again so wrapped up in self-righteousness that she imagines that
>only
> > those who agree with her are "in touch with [their] own conscience" or
> > "[have] the guts to act on [their] beliefs."  It's a supremely arrogant
>and
> > ugly notion--but Shirona seems incapable of recognizing that a rabbi who
> > *doesn't* choose to go in this--i.e., her preferred--direction may be 
>just
> > as in touch with his conscience--and perhaps showing even more guts, 
>since
> > he has to defy, among other things, the limitless self-righteousness of
>some
> > (but not all) Jewish (and non-Jewish, for that matter) feminists.
> >
> >
> > I admire Rabbi Adler, among other reasons, because, in my limited
> > experience, he *doesn't* convey this kind of arrogant
> > self-righteousness--but, rather, an earnest humility (one of the
> > requirements of which is the knowledge and belief that one may be wrong)
>in
> > seeking to hear what G*d wants of him at any given moment and to serve 
>G*d
> > as best he can.
> >
> > It's an example worth emulating.
> >
> > --Robert Cohen
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+