RE: help find a cure and stamp it out in your lifetime!!!!!

[Trudi Goodman <goobietheg...>]

  You're absolutely right, Reyzl...although exhaustion often makes me feel 
like this property(me) is condemned.
    Trudi



>From: Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky <reyzl (at) flash(dot)net>
>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Subject: RE: help find a cure and stamp it out in your lifetime!!!!!
>Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:06:42 -0400
>
>* combination of a khurve and a yenta.
>
>khurve = a ruined building; a chaotic mess
>
>I think you meant to write 'tramp' = kurve.
>
>
>Reyzl
>
>----------
>From:  Trudi Goodman [SMTP:goobietheg (at) hotmail(dot)com]
>Sent:  Monday, April 30, 2001 11:59 AM
>To:  World music from a Jewish slant
>Subject:  YBD: help find a cure and stamp it out in your lifetime!!!!!
>
>    Actually I was planning on being a flaming LimeGreen feminist!!!
>Labels are useless. The bottom line is respectfulness. And at the risk of
>being redundantly redundant: some of the men on this list need to deprogram
>themselves from the more standard Jewish Male way of looking at any woman
>who wants what is rightfully hers, religiously and otherwise as being a
>combination of a khurve and a yenta. That, and that a religiously trained
>woman couldn't or wouldn't possibly want to change "tradition." Read here:
>Male domination in the Jewish Religious and Cultural spheres.
>    As my grandfather Moe would say(he was Cantor)if HaShem had not 
>intended
>women to be forthright then why would they be made so? He usually cited
>Deborah, Miriam and Ruth. And Moe would usually add that Men who couldn't 
>or
>wouldn't see the inherent neccessity for women to be so, could not really 
>be
>Jewish men. Because if it wasn't for Strong and Forthright Jewish women
>there would be no Jewish men.
>    Being a great wit in English, Yiddish and Lithuanian, he referred to 
>men
>like this as suffering from Yeshiva Bocher Disease. -Not bad for a Chasid,
>eh????
>
>       Trudi the G
>
>
> >From: "Lenka Lichtenberg" <lenkal (at) attcanada(dot)ca>
> >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >Subject: Re: A nice surprise?
> >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:29:59 -0700
> >
> >Pardon my humble involvement in an area where I am more ignorant than 
>most
> >of you, but as a woman singer who attends traditional egalitarian 
>services
> >led by a female Rabbi and various congregants, I can relate to the issues
> >here. I am sorry, but Robert Cohen's remarks insulted me on Shirona's
> >behalf; I think he gets too personal as he attacks an opposing 
>perspective.
> >I think the usually friendly manner of this list serves us all better, 
>even
> >though these types of postings harvest more responses than the
> >unconfrontational ones and get a healthy (?) discussion going. And to the
> >point: Maybe all women who believe in female (equal) participation in
> >religion ARE flaming red feminists - at least, in some people's eyes - 
>and
> >in that case, there are many of us. But labeling people this or that, 
>will
> >it ultimately bring us together, or drive us even further apart?
> >
> >Lenka Lichtenberg
> >singer-songwriter and Yiddish performer
> >www.lenkalichtenberg.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Robert Cohen <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
> >To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 11:02 PM
> >Subject: Re: A nice surprise?
> >
> >
> > > >For me it was a spiritual and emotional experience - seeing "frum"
> >women
> > > >taking an active and awe inspiring roll in the service, as equal to 
>men
> >and
> > > >equal before G-d.  (I was watching the men during the portions where
> >women
> > > >were leading, and they  seemed very comfortable. The husbands whose
> >wives
> > > >were leading looked very proud.   It was all very natural...
> > >
> > >
> > > I have much respect and regard for Moshe Adler and am very interested 
>to
> > > hear that he's overseeing a traditional but egalitarian service.  I
> >would
> > > automatically incline to assume that he's coming from a thoughtful and
> > > serious place in doing so.
> > >
> > > Having said that:  Between the lines--or, actually, *in* the lines--of
> >this
> > > posting are flashing yellow lights indicating some of the potential
> > > problems, perhaps, of such services.  *Why,* for example, was our
> > > correspondent "watching the men during the portions where women were
> > > leading"--or at any time, for that matter?  One of the reasons why 
>many
> > > women that I've talked to about this, or whose thoughts I've read 
>about
> >from
> > > other's writing and interviewing, *like* a separate space from men is 
>so
> > > they *won't* be watched during davening--and I can't imagine that the
> >men
> > > being watched here benefited from being watched--"spiritually and
> > > emotionally," as our correspondent puts it.  Nor do I imagine that the
> >women
> > > at the service would have experienced a deeper kavannah in their
> >davening
> >if
> > > *they* were being watched.
> > >
> > > It's nice that the husbands of women leading the service "looked very
> > > proud"--though, again, nobody should have been noticing--but that
> >suggests,
> > > again, *less* focus and intensity in prayer (or contemplation, study,
> >etc.),
> > > which is what a synagogue service should be about.  This service comes
> >off,
> > > at least in this account, as more of a show-and-tell entertainment
> > > production--that's where one is appropriately "proud" of one's
> > > spouse's/children's/friend's home run, aria, etc.  Parents, etc., 
>can't
> >help
> > > but kvell over their children's bar/bat mitzvah--uncles too.  But that
> > > should be the exception--and, indeed, in the synagogues, in my
> >experience,
> > > where bar mitzvah is taken maximally seriously as a religious coming 
>of
> >age
> > > and not a pageant-with-party, even parents' kvelling is expressed in a
> >very
> > > different way from at Little League.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Later I spent a good half hour talking with the Rabbi,  Moshe
> > > >Adler.  We should all be blessed with such Rabbis - open minded,
> >spiritual,
> > > >a man who is in touch with his own conscience - and has the guts to 
>act
> >on
> > > >his beliefs.  Even in the face of a hostile "peer environment".
> > >
> > >
> > > I have, as I said, nothing but regard for Moshe Adler.  But Shirona 
>is,
> > > sadly, again so wrapped up in self-righteousness that she imagines 
>that
> >only
> > > those who agree with her are "in touch with [their] own conscience" or
> > > "[have] the guts to act on [their] beliefs."  It's a supremely 
>arrogant
> >and
> > > ugly notion--but Shirona seems incapable of recognizing that a rabbi 
>who
> > > *doesn't* choose to go in this--i.e., her preferred--direction may be
> >just
> > > as in touch with his conscience--and perhaps showing even more guts,
> >since
> > > he has to defy, among other things, the limitless self-righteousness 
>of
> >some
> > > (but not all) Jewish (and non-Jewish, for that matter) feminists.
> > >
> > >
> > > I admire Rabbi Adler, among other reasons, because, in my limited
> > > experience, he *doesn't* convey this kind of arrogant
> > > self-righteousness--but, rather, an earnest humility (one of the
> > > requirements of which is the knowledge and belief that one may be 
>wrong)
> >in
> > > seeking to hear what G*d wants of him at any given moment and to serve
> >G*d
> > > as best he can.
> > >
> > > It's an example worth emulating.
> > >
> > > --Robert Cohen
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
>
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