Dreydl Attribution

[Judy Pinnolis <pinnolis...>]

Lori:
No idea about the dreydl song, have never looked into it.... but I would
really caution you about the issue of 'blaming/accusing' someone for
"plagarism" with these types of songs. It is widely known that there were
many, many errors in early books/pamphlets/publications on the issue of
attribution of Jewish melodies. One or the other of the authors you are
talking about (who they are, I don't know)... may even have been attributed
without his or her knowledge. Once it got published one place, it got
published erroneously again. Additionally, a lot of songs came about as
adaptations of folk melodies or children's songs. In the case of this, (in
my opinion, awful insipid) melody, (if it's the one I'm thinking about) it's
likely it came from some children's music, and possibly not even originally
Jewish at all, but possibly adopted, given the strict metrical nature,
ababcdcd phrase form, and the upbeat and accent on 1st downbeat. However,
the important thing is, that kids seem to like it. Sort of.. the "Barney
phenomena"...I guess, where the adults hate it, but it sounds wonderful to a
2 or 3 year old.

I have known for a fact, for example, that melodies composed very late in
the game, such as even in the 1930s and 1940s, and supported by the State of
Israel, and that were first _published_ in state-run journals, even in the
50s --- even those melodies, the original authorship even of those songs was
lost in a few years, and attributed to "folk" melodies. People were NOT
careful about such things most of the time, especially among Jewish
organizations and in many publications. For example, the song I told you
about, "Shalom Aleichem" was clearly a composed melody. But those who used
it published it, left off the author for whatever their motives, probably...
and mostly... neglect...even though they asked permission of Goldfarb to
publish it....to the point of frustration to Goldfarb. He complains about
this in his documents ...that even those people who _knew_ he composed it
and asked him _permission_ to publish it, left off his name! So, there you
go... it's not an easy thing to trace.  

There's a great story of the wonderful Yiddish song writer, Mordechai
Gebertig, once hearing a man singing his song that he had written, but
getting some of the song wrong. Gebertig went up to the man, (who did not
know who he was)... and Gebertig told him how the song really went. The man
argued with him, and said "I've been singing this song this way for 20
years... who are you to tell me how this goes!"... Gebertig just shrugged
and let it go. The song now had a life of its own.

As you know, that's the way things become part of the 'folk' culture.

Best wishes,
Judy

Lori Cahan-Simon wrote:
> 
> Dear Judy,
> Thanks for this answer.
> 
> Could you possibly help me with my dreydl question?  If you haven't been
> following it, I'm trying to find out which came first, the Yiddish or the
> English.  My feeling is the Yiddish was earlier, but I don't know for sure.  
> Can
> you find dates for either of them?  The reason I'm so interested is that the
> tune for both is identical, but attributed to two different composers, each
> well-known and reputable (to my knowledge).  However, one of them is/was a
> plagarist.  This can be no coincidence.  I would appreciate any leads you have
> for me.
> 
> Best,
> Lorele
> 
> Judy Pinnolis wrote:
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: "Rock of Ages"?
> > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:14:32 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Judith S Pinnolis <pinnolis (at) brandeis(dot)edu>
> > To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > References: <F176YsDSzhxRz3s2gu500005c16 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
> > <3C1E2913(dot)70168A98 (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org>
> >
> > Lori:
> >
> > Regarding English text of Rock of Ages....
> >
> > Gustav Gottheil: 1827-1903. Heskes (Passport, 1994) labels him a "cantorial
> > leader" at Temple Emanu-El in New York City...but... he was a native of
> > Posen,
> > and served as a rabbi in Manchester, England for thirteen years before going
> > to
> > NY. He was known as a wonderful orator, according to Stern in the "Rise and
> > Progress of Reform Judaism."(1895) He became Rabbi at Emanu-El in 1873, and
> > helped revised the previous 1875 edition of the "Reform Hymnal." I believe
> > his -
> > -and M. Jastrow's) rendition of "Rock of Ages" was supposed to be an
> > adaption
> > in English translation of Leonpold Stein's German hymn, as the Reform was no
> > longer using German hymns but had changed to many English hymns by the 1887
> > edition. (That book was called "The Music to Hymns and Anthems for Worship,"
> > and included Hebrew and English rather than Hebrew and German) The "Rock of
> > Ages" retained the German melody from the traditional Ma'ot Tsur
> > (transliterated in the 1932 edition of the hymnal as "Mooz Tsur")
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > Quoting Lori Cahan-Simon <l_cahan (at) staff(dot)chuh(dot)org>:
> >
> > > Coopersmith's The Songs We Sing has the English translation by one G.
> > > Gottheil.
> > > I have no clue as to who this is/was.
> > > Lorele
> > >
> >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> >

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