RE: Borrowing church melodies

[yoel <yoel...>]

This discussion reminds me of a wedding I attended a couple of years back.
The Rabbi (orthodox, of course - this is Israel) sang one of the "Seven
Blessings" to the tune of Wagner's wedding march.

I thought of pointing out to him that it was in questionable taste to sing
the music of Hitler's favorite composer at a Jewish wedding, but didn't.  He
actually probably thought it was an ancient Jewish melody.  Why wreck it for
him?

Incidentally, when I told this story to a friend, he raised the possibility
that the melody was actually a folk melody that Wagner had adopted.  To the
best of my knowledge, this is not the case.  It is Wagner's own.

Joel Epstein
Moshav Magshimim, Israel
tel: 972-3-9333316
     972-52-333316
fax: 972-9338751
yoel (at) netvision(dot)net(dot)il


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>> [mailto:owner-jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org]On Behalf Of Alex J. Lubet
>> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 6:38 AM
>> To: World music from a Jewish slant
>> Subject: Re: Borrowing church melodies
>>
>>
>> Responding to the message of
>> <F164dOXwHyqk4hPO1eV00002f76 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
>> from jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org:
>> >
>> > Simon wrote:
>> >
>> > >Isn't that somwhat like putting butter on a piece Kosher
>> meat, it was
>> > >"Jewish" , but it "Ain't Jewish no more!"
>> >
>> > You mean like at a "kosher style" restaurant?
>> >
>> > Attn.  Left Hand:  Please get in touch with Right Hand.
>> >
>> > Other than that, though, Simon's stretching to the limits of the
>> > possibilities of borrowing melodies (a favorite subject)
>> is intriguing and
>> > raises some good questions.  Keep in mind, though, that in
>> Smyrna, I think
>> > it was, a few centuries ago (am not home; can document
>> very specifically if
>> > desired), Jews would actually visit churches prior to the
>> High Holidays to
>> > listen for, and swipe, melodies that moved them
>> spiritually, to which they
>> > would then sing some of the High Holiday prayers.  (More
>> likely the Kedusha,
>> > though, than Kol Nidre ...)  And this received rabbinical sanction
>> > (approval), I believe--though, certainly, (many) other
>> rabbis in other times
>> > and places disapproved (strongly) of the whole practice, not even
>> > specifically w/ respect to Christian melodies.
>> >
>> > Keep in mind, too:  the High Holidays Ma'ariv "Bor'chu"
>> *does* derive from a
>> > church (Te Deum) melody.
>> >
>> > And the (universally sung) traditional melody to "Ma'oz
>> Tsur" is, I believe,
>> > universally accepted to have been adapted from two (or
>> maybe three) German
>> > folk/popular melodies, one of which was adopted by Martin
>> Luther (a great
>> > friend of the Jews ...) as the first hymn of the Lutheran church.
>> >
>> > So we're singing some church melodies liturgically even if
>> we don't realize
>> > it.  Of course, some rabbinical opinions/rulings on
>> borrowing melodies for
>> > prayer specifically say that it's OK as long as the kahal
>> (congregation)
>> > doesn't recognize that it's a borrowing!--i.e., isn't
>> familiar with the
>> > original.
>> >
>> > Myself, I've always thought "Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel" is
>> a sublime melody
>> > and makes a beautiful Adon Olam at Xmas time--though even
>> some liberal
>> > havurahniks found that disquieting.
>> >
>> > --Robert Cohen
>> >
>> Thanks for this, Robert.  A lot of people find the melodies
>> they know and love
>> that were once Lutheran hymns to be very heymish.  That
>> style characterizes much
>> of 18th-19th century German Reform and it's been imprinted
>> in a lot of folks'
>> consciousness as the epitome of Jewish music.  According to
>> my utilitarian
>> definition it is.  I'd say the same for the music of the
>> Abuyudaya Jews of
>> Uganda and Arnold Schoenberg's setting of the Shma in
>> Survivor from Warsaw.  I'm
>> not keen on Debbie Friendman myself but I think her stuff
>> resonates with a lot
>> of people and that's 'good for the Jews.'
>>
>> Sorry Simon, but hypothetical examples don't count. And
>> Lori, if you think I
>> said "any music written or played by Jews automatically becomes
>> "Jewish Music," go back and look again.  It Ain't(Necessarily) So.
>>
>> When I taught "Jewish Contributions to American Musical
>> Culture" in Poland, I
>> referenced 'White Christmas' (which, by the way, is very
>> popular in Poland, in
>> English).  Not that I think it's Jewish music, of course,
>> but, like many
>> American Jews, Berlin included, it's secular and patriotic
>> (in being written on
>> behalf of overseas GI's during WWII, especially in the
>> Pacific Theater).  It
>> also has an emotional frame of reference unlike any other
>> Xmas music I know (and
>> was analyzed as such in the NY Times a few years ago.)  One
>> can make a similar
>> case for Easter Parade, and Phillip Roth did in a novel
>> whose title I can't
>> remember.  Roth claimed (tongue-in-cheek) that Berlin was
>> attempting to
>> secularize the most important Christian holidays in an
>> effort to defuse
>> anti-Semitism.
>>
>> I would reiterate that when Gentiles have appropriated a
>> Jewish text (musical or
>> otherwise), it does not diminish its Jewishness.  Look what
>> they've done with
>> Torah and it was still very Jewish last time I looked.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex Lubet, Ph. D.
>> Morse Alumni Distinguished Teaching Professor of Music
>> Adjunct Professor of American and Jewish Studies
>> University of Minnesota
>> 2106 4th St. S
>> Minneapolis, MN 55455
>> 612 624-7840 612 624-8001 (fax)
>>
>> ---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>> ---------------------+
>>