Re: Borrowing church melodies

[Leopold N Friedman <apikoyros...>]

Robert,
You wrote:
>Martin Luther (a  great  friend of the Jews ...) 
Most people reading the parentheses will probably know 
that you probably meant that sarcastically, didn't you?
You should qualify that appropriately or risk propagating
that erroneous idea. 
Lee

On Thu, 03 May 2001 01:57:13 "Robert Cohen" <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com> 
writes:
> Simon wrote:
> 
> >Isn't that somwhat like putting butter on a piece Kosher meat, it 
> was
> >"Jewish" , but it "Ain't Jewish no more!"
> 
> You mean like at a "kosher style" restaurant?
> 
> Attn.  Left Hand:  Please get in touch with Right Hand.
> 
> Other than that, though, Simon's stretching to the limits of the 
> possibilities of borrowing melodies (a favorite subject) is 
> intriguing and 
> raises some good questions.  Keep in mind, though, that in Smyrna, I 
> think 
> it was, a few centuries ago (am not home; can document very 
> specifically if 
> desired), Jews would actually visit churches prior to the High 
> Holidays to 
> listen for, and swipe, melodies that moved them spiritually, to 
> which they 
> would then sing some of the High Holiday prayers.  (More likely the 
> Kedusha, 
> though, than Kol Nidre ...)  And this received rabbinical sanction 
> (approval), I believe--though, certainly, (many) other rabbis in 
> other times 
> and places disapproved (strongly) of the whole practice, not even 
> specifically w/ respect to Christian melodies.
> 
> Keep in mind, too:  the High Holidays Ma'ariv "Bor'chu" *does* 
> derive from a 
> church (Te Deum) melody.
> 
> And the (universally sung) traditional melody to "Ma'oz Tsur" is, I 
> believe, 
> universally accepted to have been adapted from two (or maybe three) 
> German 
> folk/popular melodies, one of which was adopted by Martin Luther (a 
> great 
> friend of the Jews ...) as the first hymn of the Lutheran church.
> 
> So we're singing some church melodies liturgically even if we don't 
> realize 
> it.  Of course, some rabbinical opinions/rulings on borrowing 
> melodies for 
> prayer specifically say that it's OK as long as the kahal 
> (congregation) 
> doesn't recognize that it's a borrowing!--i.e., isn't familiar with 
> the 
> original.
> 
> Myself, I've always thought "Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel" is a sublime 
> melody 
> and makes a beautiful Adon Olam at Xmas time--though even some 
> liberal 
> havurahniks found that disquieting.
> 
> --Robert Cohen
> 
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