Re: kol isha at Orthodox shuls

[George Robinson <GRComm...>]

Easy to check on Kaplan -- take a look at Mel Scult's excellent bio. I
have a copy but I'm too tired to go looking for it right now.

George

wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com wrote:
> 
> It's interesting to note that Mordecai Kaplan's daughter was the first
> bat mitzvah and was also quite notable in Jewish music.
> 
> Does anyone know, or care to conjecture, whether the relatively
> pro-woman positions of these two rabbis came before or after the birth
> of their daughters?
> 
> Bob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky <reyzl (at) flash(dot)net>
> To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:02 PM
> Subject: RE: kol isha at Orthodox shuls
> 
> >Robert,
> >
> >I have no idea what previous things you are referring to and am also
> not
> >completely sure what you are referring to here.  I know that I have
> never
> >written about Neshama Carlach on this list until this present thread.
> >
> >I know very well that Neshama has had concerts at the Carlbach shul
> and at
> >Lincoln Square Synagogue, but what I am not sure about is what the
> >conditions for those concerts were.  That is why I wrote "probably".
> Since
> >I didn't go to those concerts or know anyone who did, I don't know if
> she
> >sang before completely mixed audiences at these events and thus can
> not say
> >so.  I imagined that she _probably_ had a mixed audience at the
> Carlbach
> >shul, but I have no idea what happened at Lincoln Sq. or other
> Orthodox
> >shuls.
> >
> >Because Shlomo was so successful in bringing so many people to
> Orthodoxy,
> >rabbis and synagogues would like to perpetuate the Carlbach effect,
> perhaps
> >even a Carlbach dynasty.  But, I think that they are not quite sure
> how to
> >handle Neshama the singer.  Neshama is successful at getting press to
> cover
> >her vocal complaints about synagogues not inviting her to perform.
> There
> >are an awful lot of Shlomo fans at Lincoln Square and elsewhere.
> Rejecting
> >her may be perceived as a rejection of Shlomo and Shlomo's legacy,
> >something that would very much anger a lot of people.  It could cause
> a
> >backlash and that could be halakhically problematic.  This is why I
> wrote
> >that Neshama is positioned to play a pivotal role in getting kol isha
> >changed, whether the feminist legal scholars succeed on their own or
> not
> >(having nothing to do with the merits of their argumentation.)  What
> I
> >don't know is did the Lincoln Sq. Synagogue and other non-Carlbach
> >synagogues decide to advertise her concerts without any commentary (I
> >remember that they did), but figured that the Orthodox men would
> themselves
> >know not to go?  Did they advertise the concert without commentary,
> but
> >then started a hushed word-of-mouth campaign that this should be a
> women's
> >only concert?  Hushed word of mouth campaigns happen all the time in
> >Orthodox communities.  Did a lot of Orthodox men go to these
> concerts?  I
> >don't know the answers to these questions.  You are the first person
> I know
> >who went.  Please tell us.
> >
> >I went to one seyder at the Carlbach shul I think in '96 and saw the
> >phenomenal respect Shlomo's Carlbach's followers gave his divorced
> wife and
> >daughters.  In these dynastic courts, women can gain great powers if
> no son
> >is available to take over the leadership.  We, in fact, have an
> example of
> >that right now in the Williamsburg Satmar community (as opposed to
> the
> >upstate Satmar community), where the old (childless) rebbe's widow is
> given
> >much deference and power.  Neshama's mother gave a dvar (=torah
> commentary)
> >and then she asked Neshama to speak.  After giving her dvar, Neshama
> >announced that she would like to sing two of her father's nigunim as
> a way
> >"of keeping his presence alive" in this very mixed seating,
> family-like
> >event.  I remember some hushed voices at that point, but rather
> subdued
> >hushed voices.  I could not tell if getting Neshama to sing was Neila
> >(isn't that her name?) Carlbach's manipulation for her daughter's
> sake or
> >Neshama's own risk-taking.  The rabbi thanked Neshama for her dvar
> and
> >singing, but I don't know how many congregants accepted a woman
> singing.
> > Since this was my first and last time at such an event, (and I am
> not a
> >Carlbach family fan), I have not followed what happened when she
> wanted to
> >perform a whole concert of HER OWN compositions.  (The articles I
> read
> >about her didn't quite tell me.)  That is why I wrote in my post
> >
> >>But I don't know how they work it out there or >at the Brooklyn
> Carlbach
> >shul.
> >
> >That same Rabbi Samuel Intrater recently resigned from the Carlbach
> shul
> >and I have no idea why.  Does Neshama's singing and the loosening of
> kol
> >isha rulings have something to do with this?  I don't have a clue,
> but it
> >is possible.
> >
> >>Shlomo *wanted* his daughter to sing!!! -- and trained her to (read
> an
> >>audience, etc.)
> >
> >This I know.  In fact, she told us this at the seyder, I guess as a
> preface
> >to her breaking the kol isha ruling.  But how many Carlbach hasidim
> or
> >other Orthodox men accept Shlomo's persective on this is not clear to
> me.
> > I no longer find myself in these circles.   I taught at Lincoln
> Synagogue
> >for 8 years, many years ago now.
> >
> >
> >Reyzl
> >
> >
> >----------
> >From:  Robert Cohen [SMTP:rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com]
> >Sent:  Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:18 PM
> >To:  World music from a Jewish slant
> >Subject:  RE: kol isha at Orthodox shuls
> >
> >As I just posted a while ago (sorry for the repetition), this is
> *not*
> >correct--and Reyzl, ddear, I *told* you it wasn't correct a while
> ago!  At
> >least not as far as singing in concert.
> >
> >The Carlebach shul isn't a "probably" (unless recent, possibly
> ominous
> >changes bespeak further ... ominousness), and there's at least one
> other
> >and
> >probably more.  I've *heard* Neshama a the Carlebach shul and at
> Lincoln
> >Square.
> >
> >Shlomo *wanted* his daughter to sing!!! -- and trained her to (read
> an
> >audience, etc.)
> >
> >Sorry, again, for repetitiveness--am reviewing zillions of messages.
> >
> >--Robert Cohen
> >
> >
> >
> >>***ALL*** Orthodox shuls around the world, except probably
> Carlbach's shul
> >>in NYC, only because of his daughter Neshama insistance that her
> singing
> >>transcends kol isha issues.  But I don't know how they work it out
> there
> >or
> >>at the Brooklyn Carlbach shul.  Shlomo prepared his congregation to
> look
> >>beyond this issue, probably knowing that his daughter would want to
> sing.
> >
> >>
> >>Reyzl
> >
> >>In any case, how does one know "events/places that have [observe a
> >>prohibition against] Kol Isha"?  Is it so at all Orthodox shuls?
> >>Where else? Are there telltale hints?  Is there a list?  Do you
> >>propose that there be one?  Or that we ask anyone who announces a
> >>program at such a place to identify it as such a place?
> >>
> >>Bob
> >
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> >----------------------
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> >