Re: kol isha at Orthodox shuls

[wiener <wiener...>]

It's interesting to note that Mordecai Kaplan's daughter was the first
bat mitzvah and was also quite notable in Jewish music.

Does anyone know, or care to conjecture, whether the relatively
pro-woman positions of these two rabbis came before or after the birth
of their daughters?

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky <reyzl (at) flash(dot)net>
To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: kol isha at Orthodox shuls


>Robert,
>
>I have no idea what previous things you are referring to and am also
not
>completely sure what you are referring to here.  I know that I have
never
>written about Neshama Carlach on this list until this present thread.
>
>I know very well that Neshama has had concerts at the Carlbach shul
and at
>Lincoln Square Synagogue, but what I am not sure about is what the
>conditions for those concerts were.  That is why I wrote "probably".
Since
>I didn't go to those concerts or know anyone who did, I don't know if
she
>sang before completely mixed audiences at these events and thus can
not say
>so.  I imagined that she _probably_ had a mixed audience at the
Carlbach
>shul, but I have no idea what happened at Lincoln Sq. or other
Orthodox
>shuls.
>
>Because Shlomo was so successful in bringing so many people to
Orthodoxy,
>rabbis and synagogues would like to perpetuate the Carlbach effect,
perhaps
>even a Carlbach dynasty.  But, I think that they are not quite sure
how to
>handle Neshama the singer.  Neshama is successful at getting press to
cover
>her vocal complaints about synagogues not inviting her to perform.
There
>are an awful lot of Shlomo fans at Lincoln Square and elsewhere.
Rejecting
>her may be perceived as a rejection of Shlomo and Shlomo's legacy,
>something that would very much anger a lot of people.  It could cause
a
>backlash and that could be halakhically problematic.  This is why I
wrote
>that Neshama is positioned to play a pivotal role in getting kol isha
>changed, whether the feminist legal scholars succeed on their own or
not
>(having nothing to do with the merits of their argumentation.)  What
I
>don't know is did the Lincoln Sq. Synagogue and other non-Carlbach
>synagogues decide to advertise her concerts without any commentary (I
>remember that they did), but figured that the Orthodox men would
themselves
>know not to go?  Did they advertise the concert without commentary,
but
>then started a hushed word-of-mouth campaign that this should be a
women's
>only concert?  Hushed word of mouth campaigns happen all the time in
>Orthodox communities.  Did a lot of Orthodox men go to these
concerts?  I
>don't know the answers to these questions.  You are the first person
I know
>who went.  Please tell us.
>
>I went to one seyder at the Carlbach shul I think in '96 and saw the
>phenomenal respect Shlomo's Carlbach's followers gave his divorced
wife and
>daughters.  In these dynastic courts, women can gain great powers if
no son
>is available to take over the leadership.  We, in fact, have an
example of
>that right now in the Williamsburg Satmar community (as opposed to
the
>upstate Satmar community), where the old (childless) rebbe's widow is
given
>much deference and power.  Neshama's mother gave a dvar (=torah
commentary)
>and then she asked Neshama to speak.  After giving her dvar, Neshama
>announced that she would like to sing two of her father's nigunim as
a way
>"of keeping his presence alive" in this very mixed seating,
family-like
>event.  I remember some hushed voices at that point, but rather
subdued
>hushed voices.  I could not tell if getting Neshama to sing was Neila
>(isn't that her name?) Carlbach's manipulation for her daughter's
sake or
>Neshama's own risk-taking.  The rabbi thanked Neshama for her dvar
and
>singing, but I don't know how many congregants accepted a woman
singing.
> Since this was my first and last time at such an event, (and I am
not a
>Carlbach family fan), I have not followed what happened when she
wanted to
>perform a whole concert of HER OWN compositions.  (The articles I
read
>about her didn't quite tell me.)  That is why I wrote in my post
>
>>But I don't know how they work it out there or >at the Brooklyn
Carlbach
>shul.
>
>That same Rabbi Samuel Intrater recently resigned from the Carlbach
shul
>and I have no idea why.  Does Neshama's singing and the loosening of
kol
>isha rulings have something to do with this?  I don't have a clue,
but it
>is possible.
>
>>Shlomo *wanted* his daughter to sing!!! -- and trained her to (read
an
>>audience, etc.)
>
>This I know.  In fact, she told us this at the seyder, I guess as a
preface
>to her breaking the kol isha ruling.  But how many Carlbach hasidim
or
>other Orthodox men accept Shlomo's persective on this is not clear to
me.
> I no longer find myself in these circles.   I taught at Lincoln
Synagogue
>for 8 years, many years ago now.
>
>
>Reyzl
>
>
>----------
>From:  Robert Cohen [SMTP:rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com]
>Sent:  Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:18 PM
>To:  World music from a Jewish slant
>Subject:  RE: kol isha at Orthodox shuls
>
>As I just posted a while ago (sorry for the repetition), this is
*not*
>correct--and Reyzl, ddear, I *told* you it wasn't correct a while
ago!  At
>least not as far as singing in concert.
>
>The Carlebach shul isn't a "probably" (unless recent, possibly
ominous
>changes bespeak further ... ominousness), and there's at least one
other
>and
>probably more.  I've *heard* Neshama a the Carlebach shul and at
Lincoln
>Square.
>
>Shlomo *wanted* his daughter to sing!!! -- and trained her to (read
an
>audience, etc.)
>
>Sorry, again, for repetitiveness--am reviewing zillions of messages.
>
>--Robert Cohen
>
>
>
>>***ALL*** Orthodox shuls around the world, except probably
Carlbach's shul
>>in NYC, only because of his daughter Neshama insistance that her
singing
>>transcends kol isha issues.  But I don't know how they work it out
there
>or
>>at the Brooklyn Carlbach shul.  Shlomo prepared his congregation to
look
>>beyond this issue, probably knowing that his daughter would want to
sing.
>
>>
>>Reyzl
>
>>In any case, how does one know "events/places that have [observe a
>>prohibition against] Kol Isha"?  Is it so at all Orthodox shuls?
>>Where else? Are there telltale hints?  Is there a list?  Do you
>>propose that there be one?  Or that we ask anyone who announces a
>>program at such a place to identify it as such a place?
>>
>>Bob
>
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