Re: "frummie" (was "pidyon haben/abortion")

[Leopold Friedman <apikoyros...>]

If I may add some observations
('pick some nits'):
"Frummie" is "Yinglish," not Yiddish,
because it is used in a completely
English language context. Additionally,
if it had been Yiddish, it would have had
an appropriate Yiddish gender suffix (for 
Male '-er' or for Female '-e') rather 
than the "-ie" English genderless suffix.

"Yinglish" is colorful and meaningful and
"Yinglish" is English, but it requires 
explanation because it consists of
words composed by English-speaking Jews
to refer to Jewish concepts in English
by using pieces of Yiddish vocabulary.
The concepts don't have to correspond
precisely to the traditional ones to 
which the Yiddish terms refer and 
probably don't.

So, in "Yinglish" English, "frummie" COULD 
indeed evolve to mean any "observant" Jew.
There are already a number of variations
(i.e., 'black hat,' 'modern,' 'halakhic,'
'non-observant Orthodox', etc.) in what 
is meant by "Orthodox," just another good
English word used by Jews.

In Yiddish "frum" probably refers to the 
traditional concept, Orthodox, unless 
there are more words used to show what 
else the speaker/writer meant. But 
evolving is one thing, and the current 
usage is another. I understood Rachel 
to mean she is Orthodox (whatever that 
means). Please correct me if that's wrong.

If "non-Orthodox," observant Jews want 
inclusion in a "frum" label, they could 
make a case for it, but they'd have to 
specify more details and in which language 
they're trying to extend the concept.

Sorry, for the long explanation. I'm
a Yiddish linguistic "frummie."
(How did we get involved in Yiddish 
linguistics on a Jewish music list?
Mendele is usually where such discussions
take place.)

Lee Friedman

------Original Message------
From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Sent: February 7, 2000 2:34:38 PM GMT
Subject: Re: pidyon haben/abortion


I hope that Rachel responds to this question.

If "frummie" simply means observant of religious rules, observant
Conservative Jews would be "frummies" too (and non-observant Orthodox
Jews would not).  I believe that by using the term "frummie" Rachel
intended to separate herself from other halakhic Jews.

Bob

P.S.  This discussion resonates for me with other discussions we've
had as to authentic Jewish music.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin <physchem (at) earthlink(dot)net>
To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: pidyon haben/abortion


>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jerzy Matysiakiewicz <jerzym (at) dom(dot)zabrze(dot)pl>
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 8:06 AM
>Subject: Odp: pidyon haben/abortion
>
>
>> Rachel wrote:
>> |
>> | Hey, remember I'm a frummie
>>
>> Once again forgive my goyish ignorance, but I wanna
>> know more&more bout your nation, culture and religion.
>> What does "frummie" means ??
>>
>>
>> Jerzy
>
>The word "frummie" is an example of the tendency of Yiddish to change
by
>picking up words and word-endings from the languages around it.  I
don't
>know the origin of the Yiddish root "frum", but it means observent of
>religious rules.  An apparent Americanization is to add an informal
ending
>to make "frummie", meaning one who is observent.  (American English
has been
>enriched by a number of words from Yiddish.)
>
>My wife has relatives in Brazil; the older generation speak Yiddish
with
>many Portuguese words, making comunication a bit difficult.
Fortunately,
>the younger ones speak excellent English.
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+
>