Re: Pete Seeger, Ladino, Ashkenaz

[Joel Bresler <jbresler...>]

HI, all. Fascinating, detailed reply by Judith, as always.

I think Simon was defending me against myself, actually!! Anyway, I 
consider myself an expert in the Sephardic repertory as embodied in 
commercial recordings. I look to Judith, to Edwin Seroussi and to many 
others for insights into the songs, the language and the culture. I've 
clearly got a lifetime of learning ahead of me.

Now, to the main points. It is really fascinating to me how many different 
versions of a given Sephardic song exist in commercial recordings. They 
have been "klezmerized", arranged as classical style compositions, done in 
EM style, folk song style, western art song style, pseudo-original style, 
big band style, a capella (sp?), instrumental, middle eastern, choral, etc. 
etc. Not to mention the practitioners born to the tradition and how they 
perform, too.

I think part of this diversity is reflective of the strength of these songs 
- it's hard to ruin them, no matter what! But at least for the Early Music 
movement, the allure of the (often mistaken) patina of antiquity proves 
irresistible. Sephardic songs are in the repertoire of literally dozens of 
EM groups. None of these groups would look to the oral tradition of the 
Greeks, or Albanians, or Estonians (to name just a few) for repertoire.

To Judith's point about growing up and then changing it: Interestingly some 
of the most "misleading" arrangements of Sephardic music (by this, I mean 
misleading if one is trying to understand how the songs actually originally 
sounded when collected) were done by Sephardim steeped in Sephardic musical 
culture. I'm thinking principally of Alberto Hemsi, but also Isaac Levy. 
They smoothed out the rhythms and the harmonies and the ornamentation of 
all the songs they set, and have for better or worse become a touchstone 
for a whole generation of performers.

As always, happy when the conversation turns to Sephardic music!

B'shalom,

Joel

At 05:12 AM 9/1/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi,
>First, if anyone coming to Toronto for Ashkenaz wants to get together, 
>give me a call. 5332666.
>
>So - did Pete Seeger - one of my all-time heroes, incidentally - record 
>any "Ladino" songs? (don't think so...)
>The point about him is well taken of course, but, as I pointed out in my 
>last message, anyone is, of course, free to use information or not, or to 
>the degree to which they need /want it. I don't recall ever responding to 
>questions and then being made to feel so chastized for providing the 
>information I'm trained to work on , and have spent 2 decades working on 
>as a scholar and performer. Obviously, whoever wants to sing whatever 
>songs they want to sing, however they want to sing them. But why would I 
>give less complete and precise information than I have, just because some 
>people may choose not to use it?!
>Re Pete Seeger - again, of course we're all indebted to him (would that we 
>all did it as well and effectively as he has). But - in general - not 
>referring to ANYONE particular at all - there seems to be a tendency 
>to  not give Judeo-Spanish songs the serious attention which in many cases 
>klezmer has received before making a lot of  kinds of changes and 
>innovations. Many of the most interesting and innovative approaches to 
>klezmer have come from people who either grew up with it or who spent a 
>long time learning its traditional forms, before making creative changes. 
>For the most part, always with exceptions, Judeo-Spanish songs have not 
>received this kind of treatment from performers, and that's what I'm 
>probably responding to.
>Flory, for example, grew up in the tradition, and she and her children 
>have made all sorts of changes, including new songs which have entered the 
>repertoire; she told me once that she was dubious about some of her son's 
>arrangements at frst, then thought "well, they're just harmonizing it in 
>their own way". Yes - and I even used that as a title for a paper I wrote! 
>- but they grew up with it, THEN changed it. Or, other people worked with 
>a tradition, learned it, understood it, understood the language, the 
>musical idiom - THEN made changes. No one needs my or anyone else's 
>permission, obviously, but I still wonder why Judeo-Spanish song is, by 
>and large, treated so differently from other repertoires people learn - 
>witness, for example, the close attention many non-Slavic origin North 
>Americans have paid to learning Balkan vocal and instrumental music, and dance.
>    I'm not sure why Simon is so worried about defending Joel, whom, as he 
> said, scholars, including myself, respect for the work he's been doing 
> and his initiative in doing it. Did I ever say anything negative about 
> him?? Joel has been consistently helpful and generous about sharing his 
> work, which has been itself consistent and precise. His valuable work on 
> discography is not the same as scholarship on Judeo-Spanish song itself- 
> which is precisely why we appreciate him and, I dare say,why he appreciates 
> us!
>Anyway, I'm happy to provide information - but if one is asking questions,
>:) please specify whether you actually want answers :)
>Cheers, see some of you this weekend, perhaps - Judith
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>



Joel Bresler
250 E. Emerson Rd.
Lexington, MA 02420 USA

Home:           781-862-2432
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