Re: Mahler/smahler/take 2

[Trudi Goodman <goobietheg...>]

Dear Elliott
I love your take on this.  Very much an over-view of the historical and 
social climate of the times.
Trudi
>From: eliott kahn <elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU>
>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Subject: Re: Mahler/smahler/take 2
>Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 10:18:35 -0400
>
>Trudi:
>
> >From what I understand, Mahler came from a very troubled Jewish family in
>Moravia/Bohemia. Exhibiting musical talent early on, he took the journey
>similiar Galician Jews would take for education and training--to Vienna,
>the seat of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
>
>It's probably true that Mahler would not have been appointed head of the
>Vienna State Opera if he were not Christian. The mayor of fin-de-siecle
>Vienna, Karl Lueger, was a rabid anti-semite and so were many
>representatives in the Austrian Congress. Although Jews did teach in
>universities and were active in the fields of medicine, literature and law
>(Freud, Schnitzler), there really was a great deal of anti-semitism--enough
>to make Theodor Herzl drop out of his German nationalist college fraternity
>and join the feared Jewish duelling fraternity, Kadimah.
>
>Mahler's world, like Freud's and Schnitzler's, was largely a Christian one.
>THey were educated in German gymnasia and went to public universities. One
>could certainly see why he might have been drawn to Christianity; the
>poverty in Galicia was overwhelming and I'm sure little of the Haskalah
>could be found in these shtetlakh that were replete with Hasidic dynasties
>and what-have-you. (I'm no expert on this; someone else please illuminate 
>us.)
>
>I suppose Mahler could have hooked up with the Liberal Jewish community of
>Vienna, really active since the early days of Cantor Salamone Sulzer
>(ca.1928), but he chose not to do so. He resigned his post (in 1907, I
>believe) perhaps because of the enormous anti-semitism in the press re: his
>music. It's no accident that Leonard Bernstein almost single-handedly
>rehabilitated Mahler's reputation; such was the enormous damage done by the
>negative reviews in the German-reading press.
>
>Was he a Jew? Was he a Christian? Perhaps we should ask if his music moves
>us or is well-crafted.
>
>Good Shabbes,
>
>Eliott Kahn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 02:26 PM 8/5/99 -0700, Trudi Goodman wrote:
> >
> >Robert:
> >Read up about his life, and you will find that he was tremendously
> >conflicted about his conversion.  His wife, Alma's biography says the 
>same
> >thing.  Although I never doubt that one can convert sincerely, for 
>spiritual
> >reasons to a religious group, I've got serious doubts about Mahler.  
>Also, I
> >just get tired of any reviewer trotting out Christianity as a way to 
>support
> >a musical hypothesis.  Maybe he was sincerely Christian, maybe he wasn't. 
>  I
> >don't think so.  But hey, that's what makes a horse-race!
> >
> >>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
> >>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >>Subject: Re: Mahler/smahler
> >>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:43:37 -0400
> >>
> >>Trudi,
> >>
> >>I have attended a lecture on Mahler and Judaism, but I am no expert on
> >>the topic.  I posted information on the article because I thought that
> >>it might interest list members.
> >>
> >>There is no question that conversion was beneficial to Mahler's
> >>career.  But just as Christians make sincere conversions to Judaism, I
> >>suppose that it is conceivable that a Jew might make a sincere
> >>conversion to Christianity.
> >>
> >>I am not sure that the appearance of Jewish melodies in his later work
> >>would be proof positive that a conversion was not sincere.  Such use
> >>might not be a bread crumb trail to such a conclusion, but the musical
> >>use of effective melodies that were familiar to Mahler.  After all, we
> >>would not claim that the use of similar melodies by Shostakovich and
> >>Prokofiev are signs of their allegiance to Judaism.
> >>
> >>Sometimes one's motivations are a complicated matter.
> >>
> >>Bob
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Trudi Goodman <goobietheg (at) hotmail(dot)com>
> >>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >>Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:10 PM
> >>Subject: Re: Mahler/smahler
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >To which I retort--
> >> >Horsemanure!
> >> >There are at least half a dozen treatis on the subject of Mahler's
> >>Jewish
> >> >themes and phraselogy in his lieder---specifically Der
> >>Kindertotenlieder.
> >> >I'm not saying that he wasn't spiritual, just that he had a desire to
> >>be
> >> >published and performed and at the time, being"Jewish" would have
> >>been a
> >> >"detriment" to him.
> >> >Trudi the G
> >> >
> >> >>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
> >> >>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> >> >>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> >> >>Subject: Mahler
> >> >>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:26:07 -0400
> >> >>
> >> >>Today's New York Times Arts & Leisure section, p.27-28, has an
> >>article
> >> >>by Nancy Raabe, "Mahler's Testament To the Abiding Unity of God and
> >> >>Nature."   Raabe writes that Mahler's conversion from Judaism to
> >> >>Christianity was one more of faith than of political convenience.
> >>And
> >> >>that his Third Symphony  "may harbor the strongest musical statement
> >> >>of the composer's allegiance to the Christian faith: more, even than
> >> >>in the last movement of the Second Symphony."
> >> >>
> >> >>Bob
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________________________
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