Re: Mahler/smahler/take 2

[eliott kahn <elkahn...>]

Trudi:

>From what I understand, Mahler came from a very troubled Jewish family in
Moravia/Bohemia. Exhibiting musical talent early on, he took the journey
similiar Galician Jews would take for education and training--to Vienna,
the seat of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. 

It's probably true that Mahler would not have been appointed head of the
Vienna State Opera if he were not Christian. The mayor of fin-de-siecle
Vienna, Karl Lueger, was a rabid anti-semite and so were many
representatives in the Austrian Congress. Although Jews did teach in
universities and were active in the fields of medicine, literature and law
(Freud, Schnitzler), there really was a great deal of anti-semitism--enough
to make Theodor Herzl drop out of his German nationalist college fraternity
and join the feared Jewish duelling fraternity, Kadimah.

Mahler's world, like Freud's and Schnitzler's, was largely a Christian one.
THey were educated in German gymnasia and went to public universities. One
could certainly see why he might have been drawn to Christianity; the
poverty in Galicia was overwhelming and I'm sure little of the Haskalah
could be found in these shtetlakh that were replete with Hasidic dynasties
and what-have-you. (I'm no expert on this; someone else please illuminate us.)

I suppose Mahler could have hooked up with the Liberal Jewish community of
Vienna, really active since the early days of Cantor Salamone Sulzer
(ca.1928), but he chose not to do so. He resigned his post (in 1907, I
believe) perhaps because of the enormous anti-semitism in the press re: his
music. It's no accident that Leonard Bernstein almost single-handedly
rehabilitated Mahler's reputation; such was the enormous damage done by the
negative reviews in the German-reading press.
 
Was he a Jew? Was he a Christian? Perhaps we should ask if his music moves
us or is well-crafted.

Good Shabbes,

Eliott Kahn






At 02:26 PM 8/5/99 -0700, Trudi Goodman wrote:
>
>Robert:
>Read up about his life, and you will find that he was tremendously 
>conflicted about his conversion.  His wife, Alma's biography says the same 
>thing.  Although I never doubt that one can convert sincerely, for spiritual 
>reasons to a religious group, I've got serious doubts about Mahler.  Also, I 
>just get tired of any reviewer trotting out Christianity as a way to support 
>a musical hypothesis.  Maybe he was sincerely Christian, maybe he wasn't.  I 
>don't think so.  But hey, that's what makes a horse-race!
>
>>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
>>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>Subject: Re: Mahler/smahler
>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:43:37 -0400
>>
>>Trudi,
>>
>>I have attended a lecture on Mahler and Judaism, but I am no expert on
>>the topic.  I posted information on the article because I thought that
>>it might interest list members.
>>
>>There is no question that conversion was beneficial to Mahler's
>>career.  But just as Christians make sincere conversions to Judaism, I
>>suppose that it is conceivable that a Jew might make a sincere
>>conversion to Christianity.
>>
>>I am not sure that the appearance of Jewish melodies in his later work
>>would be proof positive that a conversion was not sincere.  Such use
>>might not be a bread crumb trail to such a conclusion, but the musical
>>use of effective melodies that were familiar to Mahler.  After all, we
>>would not claim that the use of similar melodies by Shostakovich and
>>Prokofiev are signs of their allegiance to Judaism.
>>
>>Sometimes one's motivations are a complicated matter.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Trudi Goodman <goobietheg (at) hotmail(dot)com>
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:10 PM
>>Subject: Re: Mahler/smahler
>>
>>
>> >
>> >To which I retort--
>> >Horsemanure!
>> >There are at least half a dozen treatis on the subject of Mahler's
>>Jewish
>> >themes and phraselogy in his lieder---specifically Der
>>Kindertotenlieder.
>> >I'm not saying that he wasn't spiritual, just that he had a desire to
>>be
>> >published and performed and at the time, being"Jewish" would have
>>been a
>> >"detriment" to him.
>> >Trudi the G
>> >
>> >>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
>> >>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>> >>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>> >>Subject: Mahler
>> >>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:26:07 -0400
>> >>
>> >>Today's New York Times Arts & Leisure section, p.27-28, has an
>>article
>> >>by Nancy Raabe, "Mahler's Testament To the Abiding Unity of God and
>> >>Nature."   Raabe writes that Mahler's conversion from Judaism to
>> >>Christianity was one more of faith than of political convenience.
>>And
>> >>that his Third Symphony  "may harbor the strongest musical statement
>> >>of the composer's allegiance to the Christian faith: more, even than
>> >>in the last movement of the Second Symphony."
>> >>
>> >>Bob
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
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