Re: Classical Recordings: What Is Jewish Music?

[robert wiener <wiener...>]

Robert, as he often does, makes my prosaic post into the basis of some
interesting discussion on Jewish music and, perhaps, the creative
process.  I was aware of and attempting to avoid the Jewish Music
question by asking of these unkown works "Do they have Jewish
significance" rather than "Are they Jewish Music".

I would imagine that many dissertations have been written describing
influences on composers and authors that they would not have
recognized themselves.  I occasionally purchase  musical works because
of an explicit Jewish reference in the title and find myself
hard-pressed to identify the Jewishness in the music.  That is, not
only would I not have heard the music as Jewish had I not known the
title, I do not hear the music as Jewish even knowing the title.
Sometimes I  wonder whether the music was composed first and the label
assigned later.  And whether I would have been better off had I not
bought it (certainly my wallet would have been).  That the Jewish
identification was merely a marketing ploy.  And it is not Jewish
music in any sense.  Any more than calling a child Little Tree (we
were just watching "The Education of Little Tree" last night) makes
the child into a little tree.

And yet, a title may tell us something about the work, especially if
the work was truly inspired by the theme.  And if the composer was
steeped (I'm a tea drinker) in traditional Jewish music herself.
Maybe if I listen a little closer I will here the kernel of Jewish
musical inspiration.  But sometimes it just turns out to be like
watching a movie with the wrong soundtrack.

I hope that others take up Robert's questions and, perhaps, we can
come up with some musical examples of this phenomenon of recordings
with Jewish names without Jewish content.  (I don't mean labels
assigned by others, although I would be interested in a justification
of the CD "Great Jewish Music: Burt Bacharach" on Tzadik.

Bob

P.S.  I wondered if Robert would ask me about my Schoenberg reference.
In fact, I jumped the gun just a bit on this one.  I could respond
that I was thinking of Dreimal tausend Jarhre, Op.50A, but Robert
might claim it does have "mention of ... Jewish inspiration in their
title".  But I was really thinking of his String Quartet No.4, Op.37
which I have just obtained because I read somewhere (and now I can't
even remember where) that it has a Jewish musical reference.  So far,
I haven't heard it.   Maybe it's yet to come.  Or maybe I'll need some
help identifying it.  (Anyone?)  Or maybe I was misinformed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Cohen <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Date: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Classical Recordings: What Is Jewish Music?


>Bob's gracious clarification actually raises some interesting (I
think)
>"What Is Jewish Music?" issues.  Some are actually just what I (no
doubt
>philistinely) call "modern art" issues, just with new predicates. If
a
>seemingly formless "abstract" painting bears the title "Paris, 1931,"
is it,
>in fact, "about" Paris?  And likewise wrt (= with respect to) the
proverbial
>piece of "modern" junk--excuse me, sculpture--deposited in front of
the
>Museum of Modern Art w/ some similar pretentious title.  If we learn
that
>the work of art was merely "inspired" by Paris in the 30s even if it
does
>not purport to be a depiction of the city in any sense, does that
make it
>"art of the city" (so to speak).  So, similarly, I would ask (I do
not mean
>this in the _slightest_ bit hostilely or sarcastically re Bob's
initial
>query _at all,_ just musing):  If a composer claims that a piece of
music
>was "inspired" by the Holocaust, the rebirth of the State of Israel,
discord
>in the State of Israel, the havurah movement, the Jewish Renewal
movement,
>discord in the Jewish Renewal movement, etc., etc., etc., can it be
said to
>be "about" any of these things?  Does that suffice to make it
legitimately
>"Jewish" music?
>                   Of course, we could add on a different set of
questions
>regarding the sufficiency or necessity of recognizably Jewish musical
themes
>for a work to be called Jewish--as well as, perhaps, issues regarding
the
>Jewishness (in his or her own mind?  Not meant snottily, but consider
all
>the issues on the table now:  patrilineal Jews, halachically
questionable
>(to some) adoptions, or marriages, etc.)--anyway, regarding the
Jewishness
>of the composer.  Is Prokofiev's "Overture on Hebrew Themes," a
non-Jewish
>composer working w/ Jewish musical materials but shaping them, of
course,
>into a piece of Western "classical" music not intended for Jewish
purposes
>or for specifically Jewish audiences, "Jewish" music?  Endless
delicious
>minutiae to consider, as Sherlock Holmes once said.  Thanks to Bob
for
>(inadvertently) raising the issue.  And P.S., Bob:  In what
Schoenberg work
>w/ nothing Jewish in the title is there Jewish textual
material?--Robert
>Cohen
>                                             "robert wiener"
><wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
>>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>CC: "Robert Cohen" <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
>>Subject: Re: Classical Recordings: Jewish?
>>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:52:57 -0400
>>
>>Robert,
>>
>>Some of these compositions have "thematically Jewish musical
content".
>>Others may have programmatic references to Hebrew Scriptures (even
>>without identifying the reference in the title).  Others may have no
>>Jewish significance at all (other than, perhaps, a composer who is
>>Jewish and has written other works with a Jewish theme, such as
>>Cotel).  The Gluck work caught my eye only because I know that he
has
>>written Jewish music, not because of its title.
>>
>>I'm sure that you have found many instrumental works that have no
>>mention of their Jewish inspiration in their title, yet have Jewish
>>musical (e.g., Ben-Haim) or even textual (e.g., Schoenberg) themes.
>>That is why I wrote e.g.=exempli gratia/for example, "reference to
>>Hebrew Scriptures", rather than i.e.=id est/that is.  Recordings
>>interest me as having Jewish significance for many reasons, such as,
>>Jewish text actually sung or spoken, or the use of Jewish musical
>>themes (e.g., trope or nusach), but also if an event or text of
Jewish
>>siginificance was a conscious inspiration for the piece (e.g., the
>>Shoah or Noah and the Flood).
>>
>>The pieces I listed were just works that made me wonder by their
>>composer and/or title, "Do they have any Jewish significance?" when
I
>>saw them mentioned (e.g., on lists of new recordings).  I've done
some
>>research on them without being able to answer the question.
Sometimes
>>even record reviews in the American Record Guide or Fanfare are of
no
>>help.  That's why I've asked the list for help.
>>
>>Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Robert Cohen <rlcm17 (at) hotmail(dot)com>
>>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>>Date: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:58 PM
>>Subject: Re: Classical Recordings: Jewish?
>>
>>
>> >Bob, I'm puzzled.  Some of these titles--certainly the Gluck,
>>say--sound
>> >like purely instrumental works.  In what way could they have
>>_textual_
>> >Jewish content ito (=in terms of) Scriptural references and the
like?
>>I.e.,
>> >as opposed to thematically Jewish musical content?
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "robert wiener" <wiener (at) mindspring(dot)com>
>> >>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>> >>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>> >>Subject: Classical Recordings: Jewish?
>> >>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:07:30 -0400
>> >>
>> >>Can anyone help me determine if these recently recorded classical
>> >>works have Jewish content (e.g., reference to Hebrew Scriptures)?
>> >>I suspect that at least some of them do because of the composer,
>> >>title, or both.
>> >>
>> >>Adler, Samuel: Choose Life
>> >>Chesky: Psalms for Strings (3)
>> >>Cotel, Morris Moshe Cotel: 5 Quatrains for Soprano and Ensemble
>> >>Ellison, Michael P. Before All Beginning
>> >>Glick, Srul Irving: Serenade and Dance For Solo Violin
>> >>Lamb, Marvin: J.B.II
>> >>MacMillan, James: Adam?s Rib
>> >>Ran, Shulamit: Inscriptions
>> >>Toovey: Adam
>> >>Vainberg, Moshe: Sonatas for Solo Cello (1-4)?
>> >>Weinzweig: Dance of Masada
>> >>
>> >>Thanks,
>> >>Bob
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
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