Re[2]: Jews and Christmas music

[richard_wolpoe <richard_wolpoe...>]

Dear list,
     Indeed words matter and so do melodies.

WRT to knowing the meaning of the words, it is very important, although I 
confess to not knowing some fo the more obsucre or arcen words in the High Holy 
Services.  In my defense, I am aware of the both the litrugical motif as to both
words and music.  

Even musical selection is not arbitrary.  I learned 2 different Oshamnu's for 
Yom Kippur 1 from Esatern Europe and 1 from Germany.  Both are in MAJOR.  Yes 
our confession on YK is in Major.  I once heard a lecture from a chazan on this.
 The exact reason is not so significant, what IS signifcant is that the words 
and the melodies are not just artibrary, they have layers upon layres of meaning
and traidition. 

Every Chazaan sings Kol Nidre slightly differently, but the udnerlying motif is 
common thorughout Ashkeanzia, both the Eatern Europ and German verions (I cannot
epsak to the Sphardic traidtions)

The meoldies for ths Shofar service span both East and Central Europe too with 
slight variations.

The words and melodies should be congruent.  If one is ignorant of the meaning 
of the prayers the structure begins to fall apart.  But, you need no know every 
last word or phrase to have a solid understanding of what's going on.

Another example, there are numerous prayers for the shatz himself (or 
herself???) such as Ochilo lo'el.  Generally, these have the same motif, while 
the congregation might be olbivious to this, the shatz should realize that Mitf 
x is used when praying for the success of the prayers.

Even within the lyares of traidtion there is some flexibility.  A somber piece 
might be lightened up a bit during a special simcho.  I use a lot of wedding (od
yishomo) music when there is an aufruf or anniversary in shul.

Tomorrow, Shabbos chanuk and Rosh chodesh, I will adapt a number of Yomtov 
meloides inot the Shabbos Service.

Regards,
Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Jews and Christmas music 
Author:  <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> at Tcpgate
Date:    12/17/98 9:22 AM


Peter,

Perhaps Wolf's response (not that he can't speak for himself) is that 
Jews come from a tradition in which words matter.  Community matters 
too.  Non-Jews do not count toward a minyan (quorum for services). 
Perhaps cantors on the list would comment on the importance (or lack 
thereof?) of knowing the meaning of the text in order to fulfill the 
responsibility of being a shaliah tzibur (representative of the 
community).

Bob

P.S.  off the topic of "Jewish" music per se
I think that I can often tell when a singer has thought about the 
meaning of a Gershwin or Sondheim song and it matters to me.  Perhaps 
Yiddishists in the group can also tell when someone is singing 
(interpreting) the Yiddish song (with a sensitivity to the lyrics) or 
mouthing the words (singing phonetically with no idea of its meaning). 
I think that I would be more likely to be moved by a performance of a 
piece that was relevant to the performer than by one that was 
irrelevant to them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Hollo <raven (at) fourplay(dot)com(dot)au>
To: World music from a Jewish slant. <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org> 
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: Jews and Christmas music


>Wolf,
>Thanks for the response, and I am very sorry for calling you a bigot. 
>However, I still disagree.
>> > (which I don't believe in anyway), or anything. It's just the 
music.
>> >
>> This is unbelievable, coming from an artist. It has absolutely 
>> everything to do with the words and the faith they profess.  Are 
you
>> saying, "It's just sound, man"?  It's time to change the bongwater. 
>
>Well since I just accused you of being bigoted, ok fair enough. But 
I'll
>have you know I don't use drugs of any kind and never will. 
>
>I disagree with you entirely here. "Coming from an artist"? Well, 
yes,
>but how about coming from an atheist? No music I play, no musical 
>experience has for me any sort of spiritual aspect to it, and I don't 
>think this in any way shallows the experience I have. (I don't mean 
to
>imply that you suggest it does...) To continue... 
>
>As a musician (yes!) I wouldn't possibly consider not playing Faure's 
>Requiem (to overuse my own example) because it is Christian music. I 
>don't believe that the power of that music has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to 
do
>with what the words are about (to me at least), whether or not the 
>person who wrote it did so out of deep faith. It's truly wonderful 
music
>which I appreciate *as* an artist, and as a human being, whatever the 
>words are about. Most of the music I listen to has no words to it, 
and I
>love it much more than, I would imagine, much cantorial singing which 
>comes deep from the faith and the heart of the singer.
>
>> Very sloppy thinking.  The whole deal is the feeling one puts into 
the
>> words and the notes.  If this feeling comes from a place of
>> understanding and deep faith, it might result in a beautiful moving 
>> experience for everyone.  If it is just words (the singer neither >> 
understands nor feels) and notes, its a waste of time and the audience
>> has been ripped off.
>
>Not at all. Does that mean that as an atheist, when I play any music 
the
>words of which happen to be of a religious nature (for the sake of 
>argument Jewish since I am a Jew) the audience is "ripped off", and 
has
>a cheapened experience because I'm an atheist? Hardly. Clearly, to 
me,
>one does not need to even understand what the words mean in something 
>like a Requiem to feel the music's emotive power. Could I then be 
part
>of a performance of the second movement of Ravel's Piano Concerto (to 
>name another piece of music I find transendentally beautiful) and not 
>waste the same audience's time? This is just nonsense I'm afraid 
>(perhaps I've misinterpreted you?) The music is what is important to 
me,
>and these two pieces of music have a similar impact on me even though 
>one has no words at all, and the other has words which when 
translated
>are about something that is doubly irrelevant to me - as a Jew and as 
an
>atheist.
>
>Perhaps we should agree to disagree, but "sloppy thinking"? I think 
not!
>Best,
>Peter.
>--
>Peter Hollo  raven (at) fourplay(dot)com(dot)au
http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
>           FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet 
>             http://www.fourplay.com.au
>"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and 
>your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.
>