Re: [Fwd: Re: Jews and Christmas music]

[robert wiener <wiener...>]

Peter Hollo: But Kol Nidrei (written by a gentile wasn't it?)
Wolf Krakowski: Was it?


Peter seems to be speaking of Max Bruch who in 1881 arranged and elaborated
on a much earlier traditional Ashkenazi Kol Nidre melody.

See:
A.Z. Idelson, Jewish Music in Its Historical Development, p.159-60 and
Stuart Weinberg Gershon (my summer roommate at Hebrew University in
Jerusalem), Kol Nidre: Its Origin, Development, and Significance, p. 93-96,
fascinating music appendix from Idelsohn p.149-157.



-----Original Message-----
From: Kame'a Media <media (at) kamea(dot)com>
To: World music from a Jewish slant. <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:56 AM
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Jews and Christmas music]


>Peter Hollo wrote:
>
>> Well, Wolf Kratowski has caused me to make my first post to this list.
>> That's KraKowski, mister.
>
> > In her book, "Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque Land", she
>describes how, at Christmastime, the S.S. officers would sing "Silent
>Night" and other Christmas Carols in the shadow of the crematoria.
>
>> > Where are your warm and fuzzy feelings at now?
>
>> I think this is totally irrelevant.
>
>Not to those to whom the association is all too real.
>Not to those who were routinely set upon by gangs in E. Europe around
>the holidays.  'Twas the season to be fearful.
>
> OK, I hate Wagner and I hate Richard Strauss, but I can honestly say
>that it's the music that makes me dislike it rather than their
>underlying antisemitism that I know about - after all, I don't like
>Schoenberg's Transfigured Night very much either (late romantic in the
>extreme), and he was Jewish...
> The fact that some Nazis liked singing Christmas Carols has nothing to
>> do with whether Jews should be involved in sacred Christian music
whatsoever.
>
>I agree;  not specifially because of the Nazis. However,  when a Jew is
>praising Jesus in song or on an  instrument, in a church, in my opinion
>-- a line has been crossed.  I realize people have a right to manipulate
>their own parameters to suit their own purposes and desires.  "Pursuit
>of happiness..."
>>
>> To wish to deny Jews the pleasure of participating in, for instance
>> Faure's Requiem (which is to me one of the most beautiful pieces of
>> music ever written, and I'm not the only person (or only Jew) to think
so),
>
>If you read my postings in their entirety, I made it clear that, not
>only do I admire ceetain Holiday music, from JingleBell Rock to Misa
>Luba, but I said I in no way condemn anyone for listening to, admiring
>or being inspired by any piece of music.  It is not, however,
>appropriate for a Jewish person to lift his voice (or instrument) in
>song to praise Jesus.  Jews do not praise Jesus;
>this is    a n a t h e m a t i c to those of the Jewish faith.
>
> because certain parts of Christianity have viciously persecuted Jews,
>and still do, is completely perverse. My grandmother survived the
>holocaust in Hungary solely because of protection given to her and other
>Jews by a Christian family.
>
>My mother, too survived due to the kindness of, among others, a young
>Russian soldier, several peasants and the good people of Kazakhstan --
>Christians and Moslems.
>
>By condemning all Christianity, and everything associated with it,
>because of what an admittedly large proportion of Christians have done,
>is tantamount to becoming our enemy.
>
>This is a misrepresentation of what I said; read closer.
>I stated a historical fact.  I condemned nobody.
>
>> Bigoted Jews terrify me - it shows me we're just as bad as everyone
>> else. Oh well...
>>
>If what I wrote makes me a bigot in your eyes,  fine.
>Anyone who knows me would get a good laugh out of that.
>I agree; we definately are "as bad as everyone else".  Probably more,
>given the neurotic component fostered by centuries intitutionalized
>anti-Semitism and second-class citizenship; ghetto conditions, general
>oppression  and internalized rage.
>>
> Warm and fuzzy feelings indeed! Listen to the music, man!
>You mean Faure's Requiem?  I'll make a note of it.
>
> That's what it comes down to. I love Jewish music, and listen to more
>and more all the time - klezmer, Zorn's Radical Jewish stuff, Ofra Haza,
>other
>> contemporary stuff... But Kol Nidrei (written by a gentile wasn't it?)
>
>Was it?
>
>> does nothing for me - I'm a cellist, and have been made to learn it; I
>> know it inside out, and I still think it's a boring unmoving piece of
>> schlock. On the other hand Faure's Requiem, parts of Mozart's Requiem,
>> and plenty of other music based on Christian texts can move me deeply.
>
>I go for Black gospel myself.
>Sam Cooke, Al Green, The Staple Singers, Cat Iron.
>Aaron Neville's "Ave Maria" could make a stone weep.
>I don't think I would care for if Dudu Fisher sang it, though.
>
>> It's got nothing to do with the words they're singing, or spirituality
>> (which I don't believe in anyway), or anything. It's just the music.
>>
>This is unbelievable, coming from an artist. It has absolutely
>everything to do with the words and the faith they profess.  Are you
>saying, "It's just sound, man"?  It's time to change the bongwater.
>Very sloppy thinking.  The whole deal is the feeling  one puts into the
>words and the notes.  If this feeling comes from a place of
>understanding and deep faith,  it might result in a beautiful moving
>experience for everyone.  If it is just words (the singer neither
>understands nor feels) and notes,  its a waste of time and the audience
>has been ripped off.  Unfortunately, many cannot tell the difference.
>Then, the presentation and its attendance are merely filling a slot of
>time in people's lives.  Might as well tune into the Simpson's Christmas
>Special.
>
>>With best wishes,
>Wolf
>