Re: "Hatikvah" and "La Mantovana"

[Matthew H. Fields <fields...>]

Hope, chill.
1) Here's Hatikva as I learned it, in the notation I recommended.
I think you'll find it intuitively obvious, and its advantages will
be imediately obvious.

4/4, 1 flat
a |d e f g | a   a .a|b a b d |a      |g   g g |f   f f |e d e f |d.  :|| x|

   d   ^d  | d   d   | c d c b | a       |

 _ d   ^d  | d   d   | c d c b | a       |

   g  g e | f   f   | g a b c | a g f    | g   g e | f. gf  f |

   e d e f | d      ||

The only notationally-exciting moment comes in the second line, where
the octave leap is notated.  In conventional notation you could notate
this line with a repeat, but here I've written out the second repeat
to clarify the drop of a fifth between the end of line 2 and the start
of line 3 (default is small intervals).

2) Nobody was saying you couldn't link the Giamberti to the same line
of music, just I was saying that I couldn't see from the limited info
presented (with the suggestion "judge for yourself") how it was more like
Hatikva than lots of other pieces.  The additional musicological info
you brought to bear in this latest posting really answers all my questions,
thanks.  I'm impressed by this info, more than anything, that these
really are all one tradition.  Thank you, that really added something
to my knowledge of music---something more than seeing similar deep
structures in various pieces all over the place (I know far too many
folks who believe that all compositions are variations on their own
pet urlinea...).

3) My coments on Fux were directed at your attempts at canon, not at
musicology.  Musical composition is my specialty, and I hope you do
find your canon---My feeling just off the top of my head is that you should
be able to find something where the lines alternate between coherent
contrary motion and parallel thirds and 6ths, but the moments when
the lines change direction might be troublesome.  I've half a notion
to play with the tune myself.  As for variants on Happy Birthday,
I've got a midi file right here that I've put on the news that
contains my own prelude and two fugues on it, complete with tonal
answers, inversions, versions with the rhythm recognizeably-distorted,
etc., etc., etc.  If you're interested, I can e-mail it to you, but
it really doesn't have anything to do with Jewish music other than
that I wrote it.

4) I, for one, am absolutely ecstatic to have some more concrete idea
of a source and lore  for the Hatikva tune than Smetana.  This info is
definitely appropriate to this newsgroup.  The group is devoted to
Jewish Music, and most of the interest is in Klez, but I hang out here
from time to time as a representative of classical Jewish musicians, and
I'm glad to hear some scholarship in the area from you.  Your command
of the sources is delightful.  Sorry that I came off as a pesky grad
student (I'm not one), but I really didn't follow your point in an
earlier post until you clarified it now.

Matt