RE:Re: Rule, Britannia.

[Alex Lubet <lubet001...>]

I know this and admire your generosity.  I wish my own contacts 
consistently inspired the same.

At 05:05 PM 12/17/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>Chaverim:Whilst it is true that in previous generations nearly all 
>Christians 'sang from the same hymn-sheet',so to speak,today,apart frtom 
>some conservative and fundamentalist Christians,there are many Christian 
>scholars,clergy,and even men and women in the pews who dismis the 
>so-called Christalogical passages in the Hebrew Bible.So let's welcome the 
>change,and perhaps spend more thinbking time in the present than in the past.
>B'shalom
>Rabbi Douglas Charing
>Jewish Education Bureau
>Leeds-UK
>
>3
>
>On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:51:12 -0600 Alex Lubet <lubet001 (at) umn(dot)edu> 
>wrote:
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>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 10:51:12 -0600
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>From: Alex Lubet <lubet001 (at) umn(dot)edu>
>Subject: Re: Rule, Britannia...
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>You're more generous than I am, E.  There are, however, times when 
>Christians who enter into disputations with Jews attempt to 'prove' the 
>truth of their faith, reading prophecies Jews don't read, by using OT 
>texts.  There are sites on the web that specifically prep Jews for such 
>arguments with, for example, Jews for Jesus, who I think it is fair to say 
>have an agenda.
>
>At 11:14 AM 12/17/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> >
>> >1)  Handel's oratorio Messiah was composed with an overtly Christian
>> >agenda.  Then and now, certain Christians have used their readings of OT
>> >texts to further their own agendas to the detriment of Jews.
>>
>>I was always under the impression that Christians used prophets like 
>>Isaiah to foretell the coming of Jesus Christ. I see no "agenda" in this, 
>>Alex, short of one faith building upon the texts of an earlier one.
>>
>>
>>
>> >4)  There are many reasons OT themes might be used in oratorios.  They
>> >were conceived as popular, commercial entertainment and competed with
>> >Italian opera.  Theatrical potential is one possibility, an elegant
>> >tradition of OT English via the King James Bible another.  Chosenness is
>> >not one I've heard.  If there's evidence of any Jewish role in British
>> >popular entertainment in the early 18th century, I'd be interested in what
>> >it was.
>>
>>The oratorio originated in the "oratory" next to a certain church in late 
>>16th, early 17th century Rome. They were specifically performed during 
>>Lent, when Roman Catholics were forbidden to attend the opera. I do not 
>>know if a proclivity for Old Testament texts began during this time, I do 
>>know, however, that Carissimi's JEPTHA was an oratorio from the early 
>>17th century. I would be curious if there was an Italian tradition that 
>>used Old Testament texts for oratorios. If so, Handel might have picked 
>>it up during his years in Italy.
>
>
>I was referring specifically to Handel's switch from Italian opera to 
>English oratorio when he shifted his base of operations, not to the 
>oratorio in general, about which I think you are correct.
>
>
>
>
>>Chag sameach,
>>
>>Eliott Kahn
>>
>
>Alex Lubet, Ph. D.
>Morse Alumni Distinguished Teaching Professor of Music
>Adjunct Professor of American and Jewish Studies
>University of Minnesota
>100 Ferguson Hall
>Minneapolis, MN 55455
>612 624-7840 (o)
>612 699-1097 (h)
>612 624-8001  ATTN:  Alex Lubet (FAX)
>

Alex Lubet, Ph. D.
Morse Alumni Distinguished Teaching Professor of Music
Adjunct Professor of American and Jewish Studies
University of Minnesota
100 Ferguson Hall
Minneapolis, MN 55455
612 624-7840 (o)
612 699-1097 (h)
612 624-8001  ATTN:  Alex Lubet (FAX)

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