Re: Music of the Ancient Temple speculations.

[Judy Pinnolis <pinnolis...>]

Judah:
Responses interspersed:
At 07:24 PM 3/21/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Judy,
>
>I agree with you all the way, and had no intention to belittle the role of
>chant in Jewish tradition,in the numerous ways it is described.  My whole
>point in problematizing the sound and idea of "ancient" Jewish chant is to
>show how difficult it is to make direct connections between Jewish and
>Christian chant traditions (which is something assumed by a large number
>of people today, and popularized through Werner's book).  

I know you didn't belittle the chanting and didn't feel you did, but I just
wanted to make sure that the points were kept in perspective. I agree there
is a musicological problem about "knowing" what ancient sounds were like
and that we don't really know and probably never will.

You
>highlighted this assumption in your first posting, which is why I wrote
>back.  

Intellectual honesty compels me to say that you are probably right:
Recommending Werner was probably not the best judgement, even though I did
insert a caveat recognizing this very problem....---certainly  if we're
talking about the *basis* of Church chant and if we're talking to someone
intelligent whose interested in delving into the particulars and truth
about Jewish music.-- I'd recommend a more modern writer. BUT At the time I
recommended this to Joel though, (and this IS the problem with the quick
email, rather than thoughtful essays...,) it was the first title that
popped to mind and what I had in mind was the fact that there WAS Jewish
chant to compare!--the denial of the existence of that chant was the
question at hand in the record review Joel was responding to and what was
primarily on my mind. 

In terms of the reponses Joel can make to that sort of review, it is
certainly valid to assert that there IS a Jewish chant tradition that can
be examined. ---And that has nothing to do with architectural design!
(Frankly, when I read that, I thought the whole thing was a Purim prank,
and actually, it could serve as one!)

I agree the writer of the review that started off this whole thing
>should certainly be educated as to the importance of solo chant in Jewish
>religious history; 

YUP


but I think the failure of Werner's main thesis?-that
>there was a definite and traceable connection between Christian and Jewish
>chant in the middle ages--is only one drawback for a book that seems bent on
>confusing the reader into submission through assemblages of far-flung,
>frequently unsupported (and sometimes inaccurate) details.  Again, I refer
>you to the Jeffery review I mentioned in my second posting for further
>information. 

Yes. Agreed. Problematic. We just don't know for sure. also: Will get the
article, thanks.

It is my assumption (and I have NO evidence for this-- so this is a
completely biased assumption) that the leaps Werner made were, part what he
considered simply logic, and part wishful thinking in order to increase the
status of Jews and Jewish music as the ultimate *underpinnings* of European
music. I don't think today anyone feels compelled by that 'historical
imperative' and can and always should be, more objective in scholarship.

 Idelsohn's
>thesaurus, or his "Jewish music in its Historical Development," treat the
>subject much more even-handedly (as does the Avenary Encyclopedia Judaica
>article).  

Idelsohn is truly remarkable and hopefully more young people will follow
his example and do some field work!

You are right on, though, in implying that recent scholarship
>really hasn't touched upon this topic with much depth or success (as I see
>it, it's kind of out of style right now, given the problems that arose with
>Werner's work).
>
Thanks. And also, it's not clear that even the greatest study will find
success with answers to these questions. They are some of the mysteries we
will never know, I feel. (But maybe we'll be able put small pieces together
over the years....)

>Please understand that as an ethnomusicologist, I'm trained to take things
>apart and problematize them.  Often what is acceptable proof to you might be
>much more problematic for me.  

Yes, agreed. And I don't disagree with what you've said on the issue of
*direct* linkage of the various chants. Your points are very well taken. I
appreciate your willingness to examine the issues in depth and bring it up
on the list.....For myself, I don't know enough about Church music to make
really first hand judgements... I have to rely on reading what you and
others analyze and write about.

When I mentioned printed/written music, I did
>so because that is one of the most commonly used playing fields for making
>"concrete" comparisons among "oral" traditions.  As far as your point on the
>Talmud's description of music in the Jerusalem Temple, remember that the
>Talmud was finally compiled c. 530 years after it was destroyed; and that
>moreover, much has been printed suggesting that the discussions in the
>Talmud were just as much a reflection and redefinition of contemporary times
>as they were a yearning back to Temple times.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but
>wasn't that about the about the same time the "cruse of oil that lasted
>eight nights" myth of Hanukkah was invented by the rabbis?  Looking from
>*our* time period:  with the exception of paintings, we have lost almost
>*numerous* instrument makers' techniques from the 15th century.  

Yes, the rabbis are some of the great story tellers, aren't they?

Why, then,
>should we expect the rabbis, most of whom were probably more skilled at
>criticizing musicians than being them, to be any better?  (All this said, I
>must admit your cymbal story is intriguing, and I'd ask if you have a
>reference for it.)
>
>From what I recall, there seemed to be a very serious take on trying to
preserve the information about the details of worship in the Temple. I see
this information as differing substantively from the Hannukkah story and
other tales and legends of the rabbis where they needed raison d'etre for
accepting and rejecting holidays and rules and so forth. Preservation of
Temple "memory" seemed an imporant obligation, from what I can tell.  (Will
try to dig up that citation... don't know if I still have it around... will
get back to you off list but it's unlikely to be this week!) 

>But again such analysis is what I do for a living.  I can certianly
>understand how it may seem petty at times, but I also feel it can lead to a
>wonderful exchange of ideas (perhaps somewhat akin to this one).
>

I for one am glad there's someone around thinking about these issues. From
the record reviewer's comments,  many don't even know there is something to
discuss, apparently. Where are you teaching? 

>As to harmony:  even today, there are highly skilled middle-Eastern
>ensembles that play only one "melodic" line without even considering issues
>of harmony.  It might be best, then, not to think of harmony as "the next
>logical step of development" after monophony, but rather as a method of
>organizing music that gained a great deal of value and became highly
>specialized in educated Western society.  (My general way of seeing the
>musical continuum is as a large horizontal plain, while acknowledging that
>individual peoples might see their own music as a trajectory.) To many
>people in the middle east and Asia, a single taqsim played by a master
>musician (or group) could contain more religious feeling and art than
>anything Western "harmonizers" could make up.

Yes, but as a Westerner, it still never ceases to *amaze* me that all those
people, all those years, with all those instruments with multiple strings
and multiple tunings, didn't experiment around on them to think to pluck
two strings at the same time! It just goes beyond my ability to grasp, I
guess. Our ideas about what sounds "pleasant" and "intriguing" and what
another culture considers acceptable are so different, even though in our
age, we've been exposed to music from all over the world. Still,
speculation on ancient Temple music is a sweet pasttime, don't you think?

Best wishes,
Judy




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