Re: editorial and attributive minutiae

[Robert Cohen <rlcm17...>]

Re "betray":  Ouch!  Yes, no doubt a legitimate usage (and I've _written_ 
for dictionaries!).  But I still might changed it in a ms. for publication, 
as it's ambiguous.  Re:  Curt Sachs.  The def. I quoted is near-univerally 
atttributed to Sachs, so far as I know--I believe first offered at a 
particular Jewish music conference  c. 1950. (I.e., we even know _when_ he 
coined it.)  If it in fact originated w/ Fromm, I certainly want to know--I 
quote this defnition often in lectures, attributed to Sachs.  Perhaps Fromm 
thought he was legitimately paraphrasing.  Or perhaps he _does_ attribute it 
somewhere.  Anyway, thanks for yr reply--more to come re doo-wops.--Robert


>From: elkahn (at) JTSA(dot)EDU
>Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Subject: Re: What Is Jewish Music?
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:07:13 +0000
>
>Robert:
>
>According to Webster's Dictionary:
>
>BETRAY: #4a. To reveal unintentionally #4b. To show, indicate
>
>Sorry, just the editor in me.
>
>ALAN MENKEN: composer most noted for Disney animated feature musicals such
>as THE LITTLE MERMAID, BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, POCAHANTAS (All with lyricist
>Howard Ashman), THE HUNCHBACK OF NOTRE DAME and HERCULES (lyrics, I
>believe, Howard Zippel). Also wrote the score for off-BWY musical and film
>LITTLE SHOP OF HORRORS. (lyrics also by Ashman).
>
>I'm sure if Curt Sachs created that definition of Jewish music, Mr. Fromm
>would have cited him, and I'll check next time I run across the quote. 
>Fromm
>was the last person who would have used an idea without  crediting its 
>author.
>
>Eliott Kahn
>
>On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Robert Cohen wrote:
>
> > Re Eliott's recent post (which I seem to have received only as history 
>to
> > Alex Lubet's, not in the original?):  The musicologist Curt Sachs 
>famously
> > (if inadequately) defined Jewish music as music composed by Jews for 
>Jews to
> > use in a Jewish way (i.e., for Jewish purposes).  The composer Herbert 
>Fromm
> > was almost surely quoting/paraphrasing this definition rather than 
>coining
> > it....BTW, I never heard of Alan Menken, but surely Eliott means that 
>his
> > music _reflects,_ not "betrays" (!--means the opposite) the qualities he
> > adduces?  Sorry-the editor in me.  (Another quintessentially Jewish
> > [critical/tikkunidik] vocation?)  Some very thoughtful and intriguing
> > thoughts on this go-round on this topic to date, plus "cutting records 
>and
> > cutting stones"--should be a song lyric.
> >
> >
> > >From: "Alex Lubet" <lubet001 (at) maroon(dot)tc(dot)umn(dot)edu>
> > >Reply-To: jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org
> > >To: World music from a Jewish slant <jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org>
> > >Subject: Re: What Is Jewish Music?
> > >Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:33:50 -0500
> > >
> > >Responding to the message of
> > ><Pine(dot)PMDF(dot)3(dot)96(dot)990628095049(dot)539082850B-100000 (at) 
> > >JTSA(dot)EDU>
> > >from jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org:
> > >
> > >Well said.  (I wish I'd said it!)  Bravo!
> > > >
> > > > It's Monday morning and I have to get to work, but I wanted to weigh 
>in
> > >on
> > > > this stimulating discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Herbert Fromm defined "Jewish music" as "music made by Jews for 
>Jewish
> > > > purposes." I find this an excellent definition but, perhaps, 
>sometimes
> > >it
> > > > can be stretched--just a bit.
> > > >
> > > > RE: the over-representation of Jews in the Broadway musical: it's an
> > > > important item that's long overdue for discussion. THe growth and
> > > > flowering of
> > > > Tin Pan Alley, the BWY and Hollywood musical from the 1920's through 
>the
> > > > 1960's corresponded with the coming of age of so many 
>extraordinarily
> > > > gifted songwriters who were either Jewish immigrants (Irving Berlin,
> > > > Jule Styne), the sons of Jewish immigrants (George Gershwin, Harold
> > >Arlen)
> > > > or the grandsons of Jewish immigrants (Jerome Kern, Richard 
>Rodgers).
> > > >
> > > > If you look at the music of all the above songwriters, I believe 
>you'll
> > > > find more Eastern European and Russian Jewish musical influences
> > >(scales,
> > > > rhythmns) in the composers closer to the immigration experience. THe
> > > > reasons are obvious; they heard this music in their homes, 
>synagogues
> > >and
> > > > communities. (In I. Berlin it's inescapable.)
> > > >
> > > > But is this "Jewish music?" It's not really an important question, 
>as
> > >long
> > > > as their expression was an authentic one. Wolf said himself that
> > > > (especially during the twenties) there was a lot of anti-semitism, 
>so
> > >how
> > > > can we condemn people who are trying to "fit in" in their host 
>society
> > >by
> > > > subverting their obvious ethnic identities? If it's the difference
> > >between
> > > > working or not (My mother was fired from a Western Union job during 
>the
> > > > thirties, after they found out she was Jewish), I wouldn't be too 
>quick
> > >to
> > > > criticize anyone trying to figure out a way to work or become
> > > > successful--even if it meant "not advertising."
> > > >
> > > > So was their expression an authentic one? I mean, were they just
> > >cowering
> > > > folks trying not to be identified as Jews and creating bland works 
>for
> > > > "the bitch goddess Success." (See *marketing research, *"The Prince 
>of
> > > > Egypt," *Barry Manilow, et al.)
> > > >
> > > > Well, the record speaks for itself: the shows and songs created by 
>these
> > > > Jewish immigrants and their offspring may be, perhaps, one of the 
>Jewish
> > > > peoples' greatest contributions to twentieth century culture. (Many 
>may
> > > > argue this point; go right ahead. But it strikes me that if Jazz is 
>the
> > > > African-American's great musical contribution and Country Music the
> > > > Celtic-American's greatest contribution, that twentieth-century 
>musical
> > > > theatre and Hollywood musicals (the Arthur Freed unit, the RKO
> > > > Astaire-Rodgers musicals) would certainly be the American Jews' 
>greatest
> > > > contribution to twentieth century culture.)
> > > >
> > > > BUT IS IT JEWISH MUSIC? I don't know. But there really is a genuine
> > > > lyricism and emotionalism in these songs that really gets me "in the
> > > > kishkes." Perhaps these are some of the greatest gifts we as a 
>people
> > >have
> > > > to offer. Emotionalism, volubility, a genuine love of culture, and a
> > > > genuine passion for justice and "rachmones."
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps this music was so very successful with non-Jews as well 
>because
> > > > that is something unique that we have to offer, and that they would 
>love
> > > > to learn or take part in.
> > > >
> > > > Finally, I've heard Alan Menken present his music live (at a BMI
> > >Workshop)
> > > > and the music, his playing and singing all betray the above 
>qualities
> > >I've
> > > > discussed. He's really a fabulous songwriter and a super musician; 
>Don't
> > > > let the dancing tea cups fool you.
> > > >
> > > > Entschuld, nun muss Ich arbeiten.
> > > >
> > > > Eliott Kahn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Alex Lubet, Ph. D.
> > >Morse Alumni Distinguished Teaching Professor of Music
> > >Adjunct Professor of American Studies
> > >University of Minnesota
> > >100 Ferguson Hall
> > >Minneapolis, MN 55455
> > >612 624-7840 (o)
> > >612 699-1097 (h)
> > >612 626-2200  ATTN:  Alex Lubet (FAX)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

---------------------- jewish-music (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------+