Re: Fwd: Spiritrave: slap happy

[Kober, Gary <Gkober...>]

Wiener, Robert wrote:

>I'm a bit confused by this discussion.

Me too. But for reasons other than yours. See below.

>Are kabbalah and hasidism identical?  I don't recognize most of those
identified by Gary as
>hasids.

I'm no student of either kabbalah or chassidism, but I do believe
there's a common misconception that they are in some way synonymous. The
kabbalistic tradition extends back in time to before the destruction of
the Temple and, as a serious study in its own right (although only
amongst a small number of scholars in each generation), has its own body
of writings, vocabulary, and methodology. Most of the names I identified
as mekubalim lived before the Baal Shem Tov. Chassidism has no
particular ownership rights to kabbalah, even though much of chassidic
philosophy has its basis in kabbalistic concepts. In fact, the chief
opponent of chassidism, the Vilna Gaon, was as much of a  kabbalist as
any chassidic rebbe.  And the Gaon's chief disciple, R' Chaim of
Voloszhin, wrote a work which is strikingly similar to the "Tanya", the
chief treatise of Chabad chassidus, presumably to attract those
mitnagdim who might have been interested in the mystical side of
Judaism, so that they wouldn't go over to the chassidim.

>And where can I read more about "the codified drug- (or alcohol-) induced
ravings of earlier Jewish >non-conformists" kabbalists?  It sounds
pretty interesting, but I didn't find anything on a quick look
>in the books I have at home.

Dunno. Let us know if you find something.

Anyway, here's my confusion:

 Ari, first you write that you don't know whether the "spiritrave"
should be announced on a Jewish Music list, but you go with it anyway.
So far, so good. You're open-minded enough to suggest new possibilities.
Then you kvetch about the vehement responses you got. Unless they went
to you personally, I only counted two such postings  and neither
actually complained about your including the event on this list. Eliezer
Kaplan's concern was only about taking whatever happens to be currently
trendy and calling it kabbalah (keep your eyes posted for  "kabbalistic
massage" ads in the holistic therapies section of your local alternative
newspaper), a concern which I share, not about objecting to "new edge"
stuff.  So I don't see what's to complain about.  But then, when you
write your own personal remarks discrediting kabbalah (yes I know, you
really meant chassidism) and then suggest that they were meant as a
"slap against the intolerance directed at those who are exploring new
edges", whether they be the Jewish "non-conformists" of 200 years ago or
those of today, I am lost. Your apology only succeeded in confusing me.

Gary

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