[HANASHIR:3580] many hava responses

[Banjo <bfleisch...>]

Hello Hava-
here begins my many responses. you may notice a common thread throughout
them, so hang on tight. I hope they are not so monotonous.

        Bear in mind here, that I affiliate with the Conservative movement and
thus have a number of different assumptions about the way the world works.
I do hope, however, that my above remarks maintain some relevance in their
crossing denominations.

To Andy Curry <acurry (at) CellNet(dot)com>
Andy, I don't know why Artscroll puts Yigdal in the morning service and
leaves it out friday night.  Conversly, I can't recall an Orthodox service
I've been to that didn't do it friday night.  Artscroll is pretty right
wing. who knows. some rabbi once preferred it there.

From: Chazzzan (at) aol(dot)com
<<there is no obligation to do ANY prayers at ANY time you want.>>

that is a half-truth. Jews are obligated by the Rabbis to pray in the
prescribed formulations twice (or maybe three times) daily.  and that
obligation is as old as Rabbinic Judaism.  and I personally believe that
without set prayer times or formulas, people would almost never pray, and
certainly not in congregations.  If you truly follow through with that
assertion, we should read Ginzberg poems to bamboo pipe music on sundays to
welcome in the Sabbath.  that is, time and formula are important.

From: NeilNFW (at) aol(dot)com
<<If I want to set a mood by singing Sim Shalom at the 
beginning of a Friday night service, I think that's peachy.  Will I be 
stricken and cursed because Sim Shalom is a "morning prayer?"  >>

well, as it turns out, erekh apayim, slow to anger, is one of God's 13
attributes. you may indeed be stricken and cursed 40 years from now for
your actions today.  :)  It is one of the benefits of free will that God no
longer treats us like children and directly connects the punishment to the
crime (chronologically. from a shiur with Aviva Zornberg in Jerusalem last
summer).

<<Will I be expelled by my congregation? >>

depends where you go <tongue in cheek> heh heh :)
<<I won't say no to a student who wants to sing "O! Chanukah" in February.  >>
Andy is right in differentiating that from making a change in the liturgy.
Singing and praying are distinct.  I can't imagine you'd sing it at your
seder as part of the ritual.

<<Let's not come down on people simply because we have are own opinions,
which are merely that.  >>
If I or others ever sound like we're coming down, it is upon opinions, and
not people upon which we plop.  Discussion (machloket) is a vital component
of Judaism.  but that doesn't mean anything goes.

From: "eblank" <eblank (at) fac(dot)howard(dot)edu>
<<One does have to worry, not only about what one thinks is appropriate,
but what other people are going to think is appropriate.>>
very true. I say many things which may sound (or be) heretical within my
value system, but I would never say that is Conservative.  I might be wrong
and need to learn more (or have someone slap me upside thehead or
seomthing...)

From: jbgordon <jbgordon (at) cloud9(dot)net>
<<with a reduced liturgy and a limited knowlege of the musical heritage,
no wonder some kid would ask for lcha dodi for the morning, and no
wonder a kind rabbi would agree.
but it is a bad sign.>>
yes.  Reform, I believe, began by knowledgable people breaking away in the
enlightenment and not transmitting much of their heritage to their
children.  today, most people would not have such a 'right' since they do
not know what they are breaking away from.  we must educate our children
who we are.

From: GurevitzR (at) aol(dot)com
<<I wouldn't want to be misinterpreted by others who seem to 
believe that Reform means less educated and more 'feel good' experience 
rather than depth understanding and heart-felt prayer.>>
if so, then why the Taubman 'Adomai Sifatai Tiftach' nigun before the
amidah? I find it beautiful and evocative, but it was not particularly a
personal way of entering into communion with the God most high.

>From: Joel Siegel <siegeljd (at) earthlink(dot)net>
>I think it's valuable for the Reform movement to look at what the
>"tradition" has said.  "Halakhically," it is prohibited to kindle fire
>on Shabbat.  Reform (IMHO) should take that seriously and not jettison
>it out of hand because it's not "modern."  

I agree that the Jewish tradition is important.  That is, in fact, what
makes us a Jewish people.  And one must further admit that Judaism has
evolved over the years from a Biblical Temple-centered form to a Rabbinical
people-centered form.  I understand that much of the tradition is
rabbinically ordained and that people have trouble with the idea of someone
else telling him what to do.  However, something such as lighting fire on
shabbat is much more than a custom.  It is quite explicit in the Torah.
Why is the Torah relevant if you believe it has human input? maybe we can
throw this out?  I understand that that viewpoint only reflects the idea
that anachronistic and cruel things (which have been mostly interpreted out
of existence anyhow) are the parts to ignore.  All the more so we should
not ignore the rest!  Just because it conflicts with modern (secular)
sensibilities does not mean you can say 'human input, folkways, modern
life: throw it out.' That is not the way to respect and maintain a
tradition. Judaism has a way of dealing with problems, I don't like it when
people try to deal with Judaism as a problem in and of itself.

(by the way, lighting candles friday night is rabbinically ordained.  it
may well have been a way of distinguishing us from the Sadducees and
Karaites who wouldn't get any use from something set going before the
Sabbath.  to be consistent, this should go before kashrut with has a
stronger asmakhta (support) in scripture.  unfortunately, the people making
the decisions seem to go more on what seems reasonable and beautiful than
what is important.)

>If someone asks "is this OK" I'll probably give
>several answers, one grounded in halakha (if I happen to know it) and
>others grounded in other considerations (whatever might be
>appropriate).  

a common (perhaps Orthodox) misunderstanding is that there is a 'halakha.'
There are many approaches to Jewish law and thus many 'options' how to be
Jewish.  The permissibility of electricity over Shabbat is a modern example
of how different approaches to the system return different results.  A good
approach should take those 'other considerations' you mention into account.
 If it does not, I would venture it is not a good approach or they are not
significant considerations.

Emily Blank wrote:
<<The more you know, the more informed decision you can make about when to
be rebellious and why.  Emily>>
        while I agree with learning more in order to know what is changeable, I
would never call change an act of rebellion.  Rebellion means seeking to
change the status quo by overturning it.  I like to go more with tradition
and change.

anyhow, I have really enjoyed being on this list. I am also on a project
genesis discussion group which I have of late gotten tired of.  questions
like 'do i get an extra reward in the age to come by sleeping with a kippah
and tzitzit' tired me out. i can't stand that approach to life.  i think it
is too simplistic and not altogether honest.  On the other hand, the
discussion here are much more interesting and deal with the foundations of
our beliefs in the universe and how to deal with them.  I like that kind of
stuff.

By the way, if anyone is bored Sun 8/15-Thurs8/19, I'll be in LA :)

some people have thrown in their $0.02 .  I might have thrown a bit more... :)
later
-Benjamin
    /||||||\   ----------------------------------------    
    |      |   | Benjamin Fleischer                   |
    | ^  ^ |   | Bioengineering BAS & Biochemistry BA |
    |  <   |   |(215) 243-0310     4021 Pine #1       |
    \  U  /    | http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~bfleisch  |      
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And the Lord said, Since this people draw near, and with their mouth and
with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and
their fear towards me is as a commandment of men learned by rote;
therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this
people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise
men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be
hid.... or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no
understanding?
--Isaiah 29:13-14,16 i.e. Be a Jew not just in action, but in spirit!

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