[HANASHIR:14702] Re: secular music

[Joy Newman <joyzee...>]

Sholom, with all due respect, I think you are clearly missing the point 
Lennon was trying to make.

I wholeheartedly agree with Gail.  I believe that Lennon, like many of the 
folk singers of the day, were striving for a more peaceful existance for 
all.  It was not about which religion one practices, or frankly, whether 
they practice at all.  The line "And no religion too".  What does it come 
after? "Nothing to kill or die for."  I see Lennon's song as making the 
unfortunate connection between religion and violence.  This is not the fault 
of any single religion, nor of any single follower, but rather a very 
gruesome reality of religion, since the beginning of time.  The crusades?

I do not place Judaism above this violence.  My 19 year old cousin Tamar was 
killed last week in the bombing in Jerusalem.  19.  Yeah.  Yes, she was 
killed by Hamas, and not a Jew like Rabin was, but still.  She was killed 
during a fight between cultures, that centers around religion.  Whether 
every Israeli is a practicing Jew is not important.  The nations are based 
on religions, at their core, and it is that tension and disconent that has 
led to unbearable violence and destruction.

I see David Broza's Yih'yeh Tov in the similar light as John Lennon's 
Imagine.  Both talk about the violence created by religion and culture class 
(Lennon talks about no countries, either.  Is that to say he was a 
communisit???)

My hope is that as this discussion winds down (which I believe it is), we 
will all have a better understanding of the wide variety of Jewish views 
there are when it comes to teaching secular music, however you define it, in 
a Jewish setting.  I think Sholom is missing the boat.  That's my opinion.  
Others may agree, or not agree...that's ok.  I am going to see Imagine with 
my kids this summer at camp, no questions asked.

I wish you all a peaceful Shabbat, with time to contemplate what it means to 
be Jewish, to you, and how you choose to express that strong connection to 
your faith amidst a secular world.

~smile always~
-Joy Newman


>From: sholom (at) aishdas(dot)org
>Reply-To: hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org
>To: <hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org>
>Subject: [HANASHIR:14700] Re: secular music
>Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:48:02 -0500 (CDT)
>
> >> Where there is no distinction, and "Imagine" prays for the day where
> >> there is no such distinction, there is no reason to remain Jewish.
> >>
> > In aleinu is about a time when "every knee" will bend to God and "on
> > that day  every one will worship one God."   (yeah that part is in the
> > second paragraph  that we rarely do in Reform temples even though it's
> > in the book) If we all  worship as one, there will be no distinction
> > since there will not be others.
>
>Just because we all worship one G-d does not mean that there will be no
>disctinction.  Aleinu most decidely does not way "worship as one."
>
>Indeed, Islam already worships one G-d.  And some/all Christians already
>do, too (depending upon views of the Trinity).
>
> > BTW- i interpret John Lennon's vision as a time when organized religion
> > is no  longer the institution that we need to worship God.
>
>There is nothing in the song to suport this interpretation.
>
>Here are the words to the first two verse:
>
>======
>Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try
>No hell below us, Above us only sky
>Imagine all the people, Living for today
>
>Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do
>Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too
>Imagine all the people, Living life in peace
>======
>
>He hopes for a day when there is no G-d (or, rather, when no one believe
>in a G-d ("above us only sky").  There is nothing about whether religion
>is "organized" or not.
>
>The not-so-subtle message Lennon is telling us is: nations and religion
>are the cause of killing and are at odds with peace.
>
> > As a Temple
> > educator I  have worked in 2 Temples plus several as a teacher in
> > addition to being a  board member of another.   I am not sure that the
> > "institutions" are so Godly that  their survival should be our goal.
>
>Should the survival of the Jewish people, fully realized in its potential,
>be our goal?
>
>It is clearly not John Lennon's goal.
>
>-- Sholom
>
>
>
>
>

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