RE: Torah shebichtav (was: a few postscripts)

[music <music...>]

Alana (aka Ms. Cat) wrote:

> Er, it's true that the seder as we practise it isn't
> found in the tanach, however, I suggest a thorough
> reading of this week's torah portion (Bo)
> Chapter 12:1-20 (particularly vss 14 ff.), which
> clearly does designate Passover, and a sort of
> proto-seder. Moreover, it's inaccurate to refer to
> those things which we find in the Talmud (versus the
> Tanach, which is apparently the distinction being
> made) as not God-given. 
> Although the gemara (talmud) is a recording of
> discussions between the rabbis, it too, is considered
> to have a divine source, in that it is the writing
> down of the oral law that was given at Sinai together
> with the Written Torah - and the arguments are
> intended as getting as close to the tradition as
> handed down as possible.

Er (I like that):  I'm all in favor of a thorough reading of
the week's Torah portion! -- *but*:

1) *Of course* the observance of Passover as a yom tov
is Biblically prescribed!;

2) I respectfully suggest, Alana, that referring to the verses
you cite as prescribing a "sort of proto-seder" precisely
misses the point.  The seder as American and world Jewry
knows it -- which is so remarkably "popular" among American
Jews -- is not in the Torah.  No four questions, no four cups of
wine, no afikomen, no Haggadah (though cf. Exodus 13:8, 13:14, 
and other Biblical verses, which Alana really could enlist, to a degree,
on her side of this discussion).  Including no Hallel--and no songs, for 
that matter.  Including no four sons -- sorry, four children, for those
who prefer it that way.  

And, contrariwise, the Torah says the man of every household
should slaughter a lamb for the household to partake thereof --
A show of hands, please, for those who follow this?  (Woman
of the house accepted, for strict egalitarians among us.)  

The Torah proscribes eating hametz throughout the festival, which 
*is* followed by those who observe it; but it also *prescribes* eating
matzoh throughout the festival, which is indeed customary among
Pesach-observing Jews (and even some not so observant Jews,
plus customers at New York City diners) but is *not* required,
though the language of the Torah suggests that it is.  And I'm not
even discussing the two days at the beginning and end (including,
of course, two seders).

I respectfully insist that I am correct, with virtually no caveats and
certainly no substantive ones, in referring to the Passover seder as
a (brilliant) rabbinic creation.

And finally:  

3) I was picking up on and responding to the distinction others made
between so-called man-made and G*d-given Torah; I certainly respect
that traditional believers consider "man-made" -- i.e., rabbinically
enacted -- law to *be*, by extension and virtual definition, G*d-given,
and I think I made that point.  My larger point, however, was that Jews
who protest that they are obligated only by G*d-given, as opposed to
"man-made", laws are actually typically practicing rabbinic Judaism
to the extent that they do observe and practice.

Though btw, I'm not sure I buy Alana's dictum that "the arguments are
intended as getting as close to the tradition as handed down as possible."
If so, then why aren't we in fact obliged by halacha (i.e., as rabbinically
expounded and transmitted), e.g., to eat matzoh throughout Passover
as the Torah appears to specifically direct?

I realize that we're a bit afield from music here; but the putative distinction
to which I was responding *was* made vis-a-vis kol isha; and, in any case,
I think respectful discussion of Torah is always in place among Jews --
at least, among those who wish to share the discussion.  In that spirit, I 
thank Alana for her comments -- which, typically for discussion of this
kind, has inspired me not only to study certain Torah passages but to
reconsider and (I hope) sharpen my own observations.

-- Robert Cohen

P.S.  In the context of this (particular) discussion generally, I can't too
highly recommend Baruch Bokser's (o"h) masterly THE ORIGINS OF THE
SEDER:  THE PASSOVER RITE AND EARLY RABBINIC JUDAISM.



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