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[HANASHIR:15054] Re: cantorial certification(long)
- From: jguttman (at) nj(dot)rr(dot)com <jguttman...>
- Subject: [HANASHIR:15054] Re: cantorial certification(long)
- Date: Mon 11 Aug 2003 14.29 (GMT)
I have read these postings with enormous interest, in part because my son,
at 33, is probably
going to pursue a cantorial career. The other reason is for myself. I am a
choir director of a pretty
decent, though very amateur, group. I am a musician but not a singer; in
fact, with a current
nodes problem, I'm even less of a singer than a was. However, as I have
gotten more involved with
Jewish music over the last 5 years, I have increasingly felt a need both
personal and professional
to learn more. For example, I will probably study Hebrew (I read but don't
understand much at all)
in order to convey to the choir what they are singing about. I want to
know, without asking my
cantor, what pieces are appropriate for what occasions and why. I want to
learn more about the
history of Jewish music. I want to understand nusach. As I am in the NY
area, I have more options
than many, but I'd be very interested in a variety of means of gaining
knowledge, including
learning on line. I look forward to reading more about this subject.
Ellen - Thank you so much.
Jacqueline Guttman
Original Message:
-----------------
From: elerner1 (at) rochester(dot)rr(dot)com
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:11:20 -0400
To: hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org, itasara (at) aol(dot)com
Subject: [HANASHIR:15051] Re: cantorial certification(long)
I have found all your comments extremetly interesting; and I did not bring
it up to open pandora's
box. Had I had the opportunity to consider being a cantor when I was
college age, it certainly
would have been a big option for me; as it was, there was NO option; it
was not even a thought in
the mind of any female back then. I have sung in temple choirs most of my
life, but by the time I
met one of the first female cantor graduates who worked at our synagogue
for awhile, I was
already on my way to being a mother of five and I did not feel it was
something I could persue at
that time. Besides I couldn't just uproot myself from my husband or my
children to persue
something that would probably have no guarantee of an income if I should
ever need it. However
with a lot of work and self knowledge and the influence of some special
cantors and opportunities
in Sisterhood, I got to the point when I was able to substitute at my own
temple which is large,
and now I am a soloist at !
a small s
Similarly, I know that I can impart spirituality in what I do as a
soloist. What I was looking for as
put so nicely by the writer below is what you might call a <<creative>> way
to improve and get
some formal education without traveling and also as a way to legitimize
what I do. Many other
professions and colleges now do this online, and I don't see what a cantor
soloist cannot get more
formal training in the same manner.
Here is another way I look at it: I persued BS degree in nursing.etc.
However,within the medical
field there are also LPN's with less training time, and others who became
nurses AIDES or just
volunteers who want to help patiens and have had no formal education; but
all these levels have
different skills and all have a place in the system and all benefit from
training and education
within the skills of what they have and what they are "allowed" to do. In
fact someone with lesser
training may very well be better than I in interpersonal skills with a
patient could do more for that
patient. And so I look at the different levels of singers/musicians and
the Jewish Community
within the skills and abilities and educations we have - but we can always
use continuing
education in order to improve.
This is not about being a "CANTOR" vs a "Cantor soloist" vs a songleader
or about politics or
undermining one skill over another. I am not a Hebrew scholar or a Hebrew
teacher I just sing (
am not much of a song leader, but am attempting to do this more, which is
another topic on its
own, but one where continuing education would help.) I don't know how many
years I have left to
sing in the public forum, but people seem to like what I do and I like
imparting what I can do for
others. This is my so-called immediate calling, not future ambition. I am
not planning to teach
bar/bat mitzvah students, or do other cantorial duties. If I went ahead
and persued a cantorial
degree or an "official" certification, I may be able to do a lot of things,
but three years from now or
10 years from now there is no guarantee that I'll be able to sing, which is
a definite part of the
job. I also with a large outlay of money in a three to five year program
would probably not find a
job that!
would ju
The situation in NYC and other major cities is not the same situation in
other places. The
synagogue where I sing has services only erev shabbat on the first and
third Fridays each month
and on holidays and for occasional Bar/Bat Mittzvas on Saturday (for which
I am hired privately by
the family if they want me to be there.)And we do not have regular services
during the summer
months. How many Invested cantors want to work twice a month for nine
months? I can tell you I
don't do this for any appreciable income, but I am fulfilling a need. Our
synagogue is almost 20
years old and we rent space from a church and the congregation numbers
about 85 families most
of whom are probably in "mixed" marriages, religiously. This congregation
cannot afford to hire a
fully accredited cantor-period- even if they wanted to and they are very
appreciative to have me
there. I never call myself a "cantor" and I do not expect to attain the
same level of achievement,
but I do not see anything w!
rong with
So I know it has taken me alot of words (and it has been a long day! so
excuse my rambling and
probably my typing) to say that if there were an online course that I or
others in a similar postion
could use NOW. we could achieve more knowledge and skill which to impart
to a congregation
and improve ourselves. I hope this makes a little clearer what my original
comments were about.
Ellen Lerner
Rochester, Ny.
Date: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:32 am
Subject: [HANASHIR:15041] Re: cantorial certification
> "Paying your dues" in the existing system
>
> vs
>
> creative approaches to finding new ways to accomplish the same
> purpose.
> I did not hear Ellen as asking for an easy "watered down" version
> of
> cantorial training.
>
> Rather, I heard her looking for creative ways to integrate the
> necessary
> studies into her existing life, without demanding that she uproot
> herself.
> Certainly it is faster and more intense to immerse oneself in a
> school
> program, to study with single-minded devotion, four years to
> certification.
> But sometimes personal and financial constraints make this
> impossible.
> It's not as simple as saying "personal sacrifice is needed", if
> other
> people are involved, or if there is simply not enough money.
>
> So why not offer the option of pursuing these same studies, over a
> longer period of time, in ways that allow students to integrate
> their
> studies with other aspects of their lives.
>
> With modern information technology, many studies can be done
> long-distance, with on-line discussions and telephone mentorship
> components. Those components which require in-person contact
> (e.g.
> supervision as a cantor-in-training leads services, for example)
> can be
> arranged to accomodate the logistical needs of student and
> teacher. For
> example, I've taken intensive courses where we studied 12 hours a
> day
> for 5 days - you can pack a lot of learning into 60 hours - and I
> only
> had to take one week off work. For another example, our Rabbi
> took his
> PhD long-distance, flying into Toronto every few months to meet
> with his
> supervisor.
>
> It can be _more_ difficult to be a part-time than a full-time
> student.
> And long-distance studies require focus and commitment as intense
> as
> in-person studies. Those who choose this path, would graduate
> with much
> direct life experience, as well as hands-on practice at balancing
> many
> different aspects of their life.
>
> As I understand it, there is a definite shortage of trained Jewish
> professionals, including rabbis / cantors / and educators. Why
> not look
> at creative new ways to offer the appropriate training, so that it
> is
> available to a wider group of people?
>
> Erik, as a member of the board of the American Conference of
> Cantors, I
> would hope that you would at least consider these possibilities.
>
> - Ros Schwartz
>
> erik contzius wrote:
> > i am GREATLY concerned about postings, such as below,
> > dealing with "cantorial certification." i sit on the
> > board of the American Conference of Cantors and have
> > also recently sat on some of the exams for our
> > certification process.
> >
> > The process is purposely difficult because the job is
> > difficult! the title "cantor" is not one to be earned
> > lightly, otherwise, the title would mean nothing. the
> > requirements for Hebrew, for example, are purposefully
> > hefty because we expect cantors to know what they are
> > chanting in hebrew from the inside out. i have a
> > masters degree in sacred music from the hebrew union
> > college because i earned it!
> >
> > the term "cantor" does not mean what it meant 100
> > years ago, folks. the "job" is not a "job"... it's a
> > calling, just like the "rabbinate" is a calling.
> >
> > i appreciate anyone who sings in the synagogue. many
> > small synagogues need lay people and trained singers
> > to help empower them in worship. i also appreciate
> > people who wish to study more about jewish music and
> > feel knowlegable in nusakh hat'fillah, cantillation,
> > and the like. i'd love all my congregants to be
> > knowledgeable in jewish musical repetoire.
> >
> > that doesn't make them a cantor any more than studying
> > the bible weekly and learning how to decode one page
> > of talmud makes them a rabbi. a Cantor is Clergy.
> > anyone interested in pursuing a career as a cantor (or
> > a "certified cantor") needs to take it seriously. in
> > the winter issue of Reform Judaism, there is going to
> > be published a large article about how the career of
> > the cantor has changed drastically over the last 50
> > years (i'm working on that as well!).
> >
> > Friends, i mean this with the utmost respect--i take
> > my career path extremely seriously. i do not want to
> > see the level of my profession diminished by any sort
> > of so-called "certification process" which does not
> > expect any less of a candidate what the Hebrew Union
> > College or the Jewish Theological Seminary would
> > expect. When i call someone a "colleague," it is
> > because i know that their level of training,
> > commitment, and knowledge is on par with mine. it
> > doesn't mean we sing the same music, nor have the same
> > level of expertise in every area--but our background
> > is common.
> >
> > i'm sorry if people do not feel they can commit their
> > lives (via family transplantation, time commitment,
> > etc.), but i've seen it all--when i was in the
> > seminary, a fellow student, a single mom, brought both
> > of her children (7 & 5) to israel with her and
> > completed her rabbinic studies in cincinatti. i know
> > everyone has their own stuff to deal with. but that's
> > what committment really means--some personal
> > sacrifice.
> >
> > not trying to be preachy here, folks, just tellin' it
> > like it is.
> >
> > btw, fyi i'm also an alumni recruiter for HUC
> > (rabbinic, cantorial, ed., etc). if you're interested
> > in any of the programs that the HUC has to offer, feel
> > free to send an e-mail. i won't be able to reply until
> > thursday, as i'll be running the rozhinke retreat this
> > week: http://rozhinke.org/
> >
> > all the best,
> > erik
> >
> >
> >
> >>Someone last week or so sent a posting about
> >>cantorial certification. I know some people who have
> >>independent certifications for rabinial studies, and
> >>becomed ordained, and I thought about cantorial
> >>certification; I would like to find or suggest to
> >>you professionals out there an online or
> >>independent certification program for those of us
> >>who are solosits or songleaders with experience
> >>and/or cantorial jobs (full or part time or
> >>occasional) and who want to further our education
> >>and receive some kind of offical recognition as well
> >>as have a disciplined way to increase our knowledge
> >>without having to travel.
> >>
> >
> >
> >>As the writer of the post had mentioned, the
> >>requirements in Hebrew (for example)for the
> >>certification now available are a little hefty for
> >>some of us. I have been learning a bit on my own and
> >>did at one time take local clases, but I am quite
> >>far from being able to pass the entrance
> >>requirements and as far as my cantorial singing
> >>goes, it helps to know as much of the language as
> >>possible, but I do most of the singing from
> >>transliteration. Besides, As much as I want to
> >>improve, I have a family to take care of, I am an
> >>"older" citizan, I have other responsibilities, I do
> >>have a cantorial job, and I find it improbable to
> >>go to NYC, or CINC. or LA, etc. But what I can do is
> >>be on a computer, make tapes if need be for a
> >>course, whatever it takes.
> >>
> >>If any of you hear of anything like this, I hope
> >>you'll post it. BTW, I did once go many eons ago to
> >>NYC for a three or four day course for Temple
> >>Musicians, and it was very valuable.
> >>
> >>Ellen Lerner
> >>Congregatation Etz Chaim
> >>Rochester, Ny
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Cantor Erik L. F. Contzius
> > New Rochelle, New York
> >
> > COME TO THE ROZHINKE RETREAT: http://rozhinke.org/
> > http://community.webshots.com/user/eriklfc
> > http://soundswrite.com/swstore1.html#howexcellent
> > http://tinr.org/
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------ hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------
> --+
> Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org
> A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an
> online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
> * * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * *
> Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive,
> objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all
> areasof Judaism. Free membership via
> http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash------------------------
> hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org -----------------------=
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Ros Schwartz <ros_schwartz (at) yahoo(dot)ca>
Date: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:32 am
Subject: [HANASHIR:15041] Re: cantorial certification
> "Paying your dues" in the existing system
>
> vs
>
> creative approaches to finding new ways to accomplish the same
> purpose.
> I did not hear Ellen as asking for an easy "watered down" version
> of
> cantorial training.
>
> Rather, I heard her looking for creative ways to integrate the
> necessary
> studies into her existing life, without demanding that she uproot
> herself.
> Certainly it is faster and more intense to immerse oneself in a
> school
> program, to study with single-minded devotion, four years to
> certification.
> But sometimes personal and financial constraints make this
> impossible.
> It's not as simple as saying "personal sacrifice is needed", if
> other
> people are involved, or if there is simply not enough money.
>
> So why not offer the option of pursuing these same studies, over a
> longer period of time, in ways that allow students to integrate
> their
> studies with other aspects of their lives.
>
> With modern information technology, many studies can be done
> long-distance, with on-line discussions and telephone mentorship
> components. Those components which require in-person contact
> (e.g.
> supervision as a cantor-in-training leads services, for example)
> can be
> arranged to accomodate the logistical needs of student and
> teacher. For
> example, I've taken intensive courses where we studied 12 hours a
> day
> for 5 days - you can pack a lot of learning into 60 hours - and I
> only
> had to take one week off work. For another example, our Rabbi
> took his
> PhD long-distance, flying into Toronto every few months to meet
> with his
> supervisor.
>
> It can be _more_ difficult to be a part-time than a full-time
> student.
> And long-distance studies require focus and commitment as intense
> as
> in-person studies. Those who choose this path, would graduate
> with much
> direct life experience, as well as hands-on practice at balancing
> many
> different aspects of their life.
>
> As I understand it, there is a definite shortage of trained Jewish
> professionals, including rabbis / cantors / and educators. Why
> not look
> at creative new ways to offer the appropriate training, so that it
> is
> available to a wider group of people?
>
> Erik, as a member of the board of the American Conference of
> Cantors, I
> would hope that you would at least consider these possibilities.
>
> - Ros Schwartz
>
> erik contzius wrote:
> > i am GREATLY concerned about postings, such as below,
> > dealing with "cantorial certification." i sit on the
> > board of the American Conference of Cantors and have
> > also recently sat on some of the exams for our
> > certification process.
> >
> > The process is purposely difficult because the job is
> > difficult! the title "cantor" is not one to be earned
> > lightly, otherwise, the title would mean nothing. the
> > requirements for Hebrew, for example, are purposefully
> > hefty because we expect cantors to know what they are
> > chanting in hebrew from the inside out. i have a
> > masters degree in sacred music from the hebrew union
> > college because i earned it!
> >
> > the term "cantor" does not mean what it meant 100
> > years ago, folks. the "job" is not a "job"... it's a
> > calling, just like the "rabbinate" is a calling.
> >
> > i appreciate anyone who sings in the synagogue. many
> > small synagogues need lay people and trained singers
> > to help empower them in worship. i also appreciate
> > people who wish to study more about jewish music and
> > feel knowlegable in nusakh hat'fillah, cantillation,
> > and the like. i'd love all my congregants to be
> > knowledgeable in jewish musical repetoire.
> >
> > that doesn't make them a cantor any more than studying
> > the bible weekly and learning how to decode one page
> > of talmud makes them a rabbi. a Cantor is Clergy.
> > anyone interested in pursuing a career as a cantor (or
> > a "certified cantor") needs to take it seriously. in
> > the winter issue of Reform Judaism, there is going to
> > be published a large article about how the career of
> > the cantor has changed drastically over the last 50
> > years (i'm working on that as well!).
> >
> > Friends, i mean this with the utmost respect--i take
> > my career path extremely seriously. i do not want to
> > see the level of my profession diminished by any sort
> > of so-called "certification process" which does not
> > expect any less of a candidate what the Hebrew Union
> > College or the Jewish Theological Seminary would
> > expect. When i call someone a "colleague," it is
> > because i know that their level of training,
> > commitment, and knowledge is on par with mine. it
> > doesn't mean we sing the same music, nor have the same
> > level of expertise in every area--but our background
> > is common.
> >
> > i'm sorry if people do not feel they can commit their
> > lives (via family transplantation, time commitment,
> > etc.), but i've seen it all--when i was in the
> > seminary, a fellow student, a single mom, brought both
> > of her children (7 & 5) to israel with her and
> > completed her rabbinic studies in cincinatti. i know
> > everyone has their own stuff to deal with. but that's
> > what committment really means--some personal
> > sacrifice.
> >
> > not trying to be preachy here, folks, just tellin' it
> > like it is.
> >
> > btw, fyi i'm also an alumni recruiter for HUC
> > (rabbinic, cantorial, ed., etc). if you're interested
> > in any of the programs that the HUC has to offer, feel
> > free to send an e-mail. i won't be able to reply until
> > thursday, as i'll be running the rozhinke retreat this
> > week: http://rozhinke.org/
> >
> > all the best,
> > erik
> >
> >
> >
> >>Someone last week or so sent a posting about
> >>cantorial certification. I know some people who have
> >>independent certifications for rabinial studies, and
> >>becomed ordained, and I thought about cantorial
> >>certification; I would like to find or suggest to
> >>you professionals out there an online or
> >>independent certification program for those of us
> >>who are solosits or songleaders with experience
> >>and/or cantorial jobs (full or part time or
> >>occasional) and who want to further our education
> >>and receive some kind of offical recognition as well
> >>as have a disciplined way to increase our knowledge
> >>without having to travel.
> >>
> >
> >
> >>As the writer of the post had mentioned, the
> >>requirements in Hebrew (for example)for the
> >>certification now available are a little hefty for
> >>some of us. I have been learning a bit on my own and
> >>did at one time take local clases, but I am quite
> >>far from being able to pass the entrance
> >>requirements and as far as my cantorial singing
> >>goes, it helps to know as much of the language as
> >>possible, but I do most of the singing from
> >>transliteration. Besides, As much as I want to
> >>improve, I have a family to take care of, I am an
> >>"older" citizan, I have other responsibilities, I do
> >>have a cantorial job, and I find it improbable to
> >>go to NYC, or CINC. or LA, etc. But what I can do is
> >>be on a computer, make tapes if need be for a
> >>course, whatever it takes.
> >>
> >>If any of you hear of anything like this, I hope
> >>you'll post it. BTW, I did once go many eons ago to
> >>NYC for a three or four day course for Temple
> >>Musicians, and it was very valuable.
> >>
> >>Ellen Lerner
> >>Congregatation Etz Chaim
> >>Rochester, Ny
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Cantor Erik L. F. Contzius
> > New Rochelle, New York
> >
> > COME TO THE ROZHINKE RETREAT: http://rozhinke.org/
> > http://community.webshots.com/user/eriklfc
> > http://soundswrite.com/swstore1.html#howexcellent
> > http://tinr.org/
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------ hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org ---------------------
> --+
> Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org
> A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an
> online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
>
> * * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * *
> Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive,
> objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all
> areasof Judaism. Free membership via
> http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash------------------------
> hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org -----------------------=
>
>
------------------------ hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org -----------------------+
Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org
A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an
online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * *
Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive,
objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas
of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash
------------------------ hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org -----------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://mail2web.com/ .
------------------------ hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org -----------------------+
Hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network http://shamash.org
A service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an
online MA in Jewish Studies, http://hebrewcollege.edu/online/
* * FREE JEWISH LEARNING * *
Shamash invites you to join MyJewishLearning.com, a comprehensive,
objective, authoritative and interactive learning resource in all areas
of Judaism. Free membership via http://www.myjewishlearning.com/shamash
------------------------ hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org -----------------------
- [HANASHIR:15054] Re: cantorial certification(long),
jguttman (at) nj(dot)rr(dot)com