[HANASHIR:13722] RE: New tech for songleaders?

[Julie Newman <juli.newman...>]

These points are strong ones and well-considered. I'm with Adrian on this
one.

Julie Newman
Music Director
Temple Ohav Shalom
Allison Park, PA


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org [mailto:owner-hanashir (at) 
shamash(dot)org]On
Behalf Of Adrian Durlester
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 1:33 AM
To: hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org
Subject: [HANASHIR:13719] RE: New tech for songleaders?


Chaverim:

It is true that Daniel Hoffer and I have been dialoging about this for some
time. While I appreciate his enthusiasm and interest, I have some very
serious reservations that I feel must be considered. I will share with all
of you now some of the same reservations I have raised with Daniel. Please
note that I am in favor of improvements that are worthwhile.

1. I am not convinced that the demand exists for this kind of referral
service. Most camps, schools, JCC's, etc. seem to find songleaders without
much trouble. Several times a year, I get asked to post messages from
employers who haven't yet found the staff they need. 3 or 4 such postings
just isn't very significant. Maybe another few show up as informational
postings from other songleaders who know of openings.

Jewish Institutions are, for the most part, shoestring operations when it
comes to things like hiring songleaders. They're not about to spend money
for a service, when they can likely find what they need for free, simply by
word of mouth, or asking a nearby congregation or organization (who, if they
can't recommend someone, will likely refer them either to some local
songleader's network, or to the hanashir list.)

What about quality control? The extant Kesher list provided by the UAHC
College Dept, which lists songleaders all around the country, simply has a
caveat emptor disclaimer. Would we want anyone to be able to simply declare
themselves a songleader and be listed? Or would we want to exercise some
quality control?

Finally, hanashir has always been a free service to its users. We exist
courtesy of OSRUI and the UAHC, which pick up the costs associated with our
being housed on their web service's host (AIT) and their listproc host
(shamash.org.) I'm not fully comfortable with any aspect of this project
being a fee-for-service operation. We should offer the same service to those
who need songleaders as we do to the songleaders. (I know that Gerry Kaye at
OSRUI might have a slightly different take on this, nevertheless, he has
tolerated the posting of job listings for other camps and organizations over
the years. When concern has been expressed, I have always lobbied that it
benefits all parties concerned if hanashir and www.ehavanashira.org are open
to the entire Jewish music community.)

2. Is having threaded multiple discussion groups really necessary? What
advantage do we gain? Why is this needed? Why is it necessary to have the
ability to do this?  Does it really serve the community to have a bunch
small subgroups that need their own discussion areas? Are we a large enough
constituency that this is viable? I've not seen the list traffic over the
years that would justify this. Small group discussions generally just get
taken off the list into private e-mails.

Isn't it easier to simply have to deal with one list, covering a broad range
of topics, and when more focused discussion is needed, it's carried on
privately between individuals or sub-groups?

3. Audio files and print music files. There are numerous copyright issues to
be dealt with here. There are sights all over the internet which routinely
violate copyright. I won't let www.ehavanashira, or any site affiliated with
it, or the hanashir list, be one of them. We have a large number of
songwriters on this list. Many of them, who write Jewish liturgical music,
don't object to their music being shared, but still concern themselves with
issues of copyright, fairness, etc. And they want to be asked permission
(and given the right to refuse it.)

And the issues of quality control. Nowadays, anyone can call themselves a
songwriter and produce music at home. Is everything that anyone does worthy
of being shared? What if the Hebrew grammar, pronunciation, etc. is wrong?
What if the song is derivative and the songwriter simply doesn't realize it?


There are the extant sites already housing audio files of interest to the
Jewish songleading community. All of which (they I know of) are linked from
the existing www.ehavanashira.org site. People like  Do we want to be
duplicative?

Nevertheless, I would agree that a central resource for audio files might be
worthwhile, if the copyright and quality issues are dealt with. So this is
an aspect of the site worthy of consideration. The issue becomes, why
relocate this to another site? Why not use the site already being provided
courtesy of the UAHC?

4. There is the issue of the affiliation with the Hava Nashira workshop,
OSRUI and the UAHC. While they have always allowed the list and web site to
clearly be targeted at the entire Jewish  songleading community, they do
have a vested interest in it. And, speaking frankly, anyone working as a
Jewish songleader should be encouraged to attend one of these workshops (or
similar ones we have toyed with over the years creating in other regions.)

5.  Kesher's songleaders directory (http://keshernet.com/songleaders.htm) is
an extant site specifically for connecting songleaders and employers. Though
sponsored under the aegis of the UAHC College Dept. do not believe it limits
itself to listing only reform songleaders, and the list itself has
unrestricted access. (It is, however, an un-vetted list.)

There is a site that connects Jewish musicians with potential employers and
gigs. Judy Ginsburgh has invested lots of time, effort and money in her JERD
site (www.jewishentertainment.net).

Robin Selinger has put time and effort into her two sites,
www.totshabbat.org and http://www.geocities.com/shireinu/ which offer music
from members of the hanashir community (and form outside the hanashir
community as well, all posted with appropriate permissions from the artists
and songwriters.

Some time back, Josh Miller purchased www.songleaders.org with the intention
of doing some site development. He has courteously kept that URL pointed at
the hava nashira web site for now.

Before considering expansion of hanashir and www.ehavanashira.org, we need
to consider.

These are all factors I believe we need to think about and discuss, as we
consider ways to centralize and improve Jewish songleading resources and
technology on the web.

B'vracha,

Adrian A. Durlester, MTS
E-mail: adrian (at) durlester(dot)com  URL:www.durlester.com
Director of Education, Beth El Hebrew Congregation, Alexandria, VA
education(dot)driector (at) bethelhebrew(dot)org
Co-Director, Hazamir/JTAI Choir of Greater DC
Past Conf Chair, CAJE 27, August 4-8, 2002, Trinity University, San Antonio,
TX
List Owner, hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org; Jewish Songleaders/Performers List
Co-Owner, l-torah (at) shamash(dot)org; Liberal Torah Discussion List






-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org [mailto:owner-hanashir (at) 
shamash(dot)org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Hoffer
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 7:16 PM
To: hanashir (at) shamash(dot)org
Cc: adrian (at) ehavanashira(dot)org
Subject: [HANASHIR:13715] New tech for songleaders?


Dear fellow songleaders,

Hello! This is my first post to the list. I've been songleading for
the last 10 years or so, mostly in the Boston area, and now in San
Francisco. I'm a technology entrepreneur at heart and I used to do
tech work for Jewish Family & Life Magazine, Jewish Web Week,
Shamash, AJFCA, and other organizations.

I've been talking with Adrian about how more technology can help
benefit the songleading community, and about some possible ways to
expand the songleaders.org web site and even possibly the mailing
list. We'd love to get your thoughts, if you have any, on what can be
done.

Some ideas we were toying with -

- an online music library for people to upload audio clips of
themselves playing songs, and also for scanned sheet music
- a Monster.com-like interface for synagogues and temples to search a
database of songleaders, to hire people who match their criteria
(same geographic area, applicable experience, etc. - songleaders can
register themselves and include resumes or audio clips of themselves
playing)
- online discussion forums where people can discuss subjects of
interest - sorta like this email list, but on the web, so people can
read through older messages and not get lots of email each day

The advantage of something like a music library is that everyone can
learn quickly the songs they might need, whenever they want, and not
need to depend on a fellow songleader happening to see their email
request that day. But how do we control for quality songs? And are
there copyright issues?

Wouuld *you* be interested in registering once so that temples in
your area could find your name in a database and call you whenever
they needed songleading, just like Monster.com?

What do you think of all this?

B'vracha,

/dan (and Adrian)
--
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fax:  (775) 249 - 8054





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